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Vick gets more dough than Manning!

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Postby 34=Sweetness » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:04 pm

maddog60 wrote:Vick

16 TDs vs. 19 turnovers
< 3200 total yards
55.7 completion percentage

Earth to Vick supporters: he's a QB. His job, his role, what he gets paid to do is pass. 1000 yards rushing would be nice if he were merely the RB. I don't care how a QB gets yards, but he's responsible for getting yards and moving the ball. Vick doesn't get yards. He causes far too many turnovers and not enough TDs. He's hurt his team more times than he's helped them this year. He's quite lucky only 7 of his whopping 15 fumbles were lost to the other team.

Look at how he holds the ball when he scrambles. It's down around his waist in one hand. Other scrambling QBs hold the ball cocked and ready to be thrown when they scramble, until they tuck and run. This isn't a fine point and tricky aspect of the game, this is a fundamental that a 4th year player should not need correcting on. It's costing his team drives, and he's costing his team. Injuries aside, Vick is still getting treated like a rookie despite having not improved at all in 4 years. In fact he's worse than he was 2 years ago.

Also, someone claimed Vick's completion percentage is about what McNabb's was pre-TO. That's incorrect. To this very day Vick has not finished a season with a completion percentage higher than McNabb's since McNabb became the full time starter. Vick can't pass. A strong arm is nice, but if its not on target, it's meaningless.

Finally, Vick and toughness. I have two words: Brett Favre. Until Vick plays a season with a broken thumb, eclipses 200 consecutive games played, and much more, he doesn't stand a chance. If being sacked makes someone the toughest QB, than Bledsoe and Carr must be tough as nails. Luckily, such faulty logic isn't correct.
Im pretty sure Vick has a better win percentage when he plays than Brett Favre.
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Postby maddog60 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:12 pm

34=Sweetness wrote:Im pretty sure Vick has a better win percentage when he plays than Brett Favre.


He may, but winning does not correlate into toughness.
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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:07 pm

maddog60 wrote:
34=Sweetness wrote:Im pretty sure Vick has a better win percentage when he plays than Brett Favre.


He may, but winning does not correlate into toughness.


Sorry, but you don't win an NFL championship on toughness. You have to actually play in the Super Bowl and win the game. Remember when Vick beat Green Bay in Lambeau a few years back in the playoffs before that feat was ever accomplished before? I don't care what the stats look like, Michael Vick makes a difference on the Falcon's. He wins games...
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Postby 34=Sweetness » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:47 pm

maddog60 wrote:Vick

16 TDs vs. 19 turnovers
< 3200 total yards
55.7 completion percentage

Earth to Vick supporters: he's a QB. His job, his role, what he gets paid to do is pass. 1000 yards rushing would be nice if he were merely the RB. I don't care how a QB gets yards, but he's responsible for getting yards and moving the ball. Vick doesn't get yards. He causes far too many turnovers and not enough TDs. He's hurt his team more times than he's helped them this year. He's quite lucky only 7 of his whopping 15 fumbles were lost to the other team.

Look at how he holds the ball when he scrambles. It's down around his waist in one hand. Other scrambling QBs hold the ball cocked and ready to be thrown when they scramble, until they tuck and run. This isn't a fine point and tricky aspect of the game, this is a fundamental that a 4th year player should not need correcting on. It's costing his team drives, and he's costing his team. Injuries aside, Vick is still getting treated like a rookie despite having not improved at all in 4 years. In fact he's worse than he was 2 years ago.

Also, someone claimed Vick's completion percentage is about what McNabb's was pre-TO. That's incorrect. To this very day Vick has not finished a season with a completion percentage higher than McNabb's since McNabb became the full time starter. Vick can't pass. A strong arm is nice, but if its not on target, it's meaningless.

Finally, Vick and toughness. I have two words: Brett Favre. Until Vick plays a season with a broken thumb, eclipses 200 consecutive games played, and much more, he doesn't stand a chance. If being sacked makes someone the toughest QB, than Bledsoe and Carr must be tough as nails. Luckily, such faulty logic isn't correct.
Quarterbacks are paid to win, not accumulate stats. Last time I checked, the Falcons win a lot when Vick plays. And they lose a lot when he doesnt. The fact is there is no more dangerous player in the league. How many players do you have to permanetly assign a linebacker to in a spy? Maybe McNair back in the day? Or when McNabb used to run? The fact that he is there and that he CAN break a big 20 yard dash is part of the danger, because you must account for him and take someone out of coverage/blitz. And, when did toughness when any games? When Brett Favre "toughs" it out with injuries, he usually screws up more and it hurts the team. He threw 22 INTs in the regular season while he was "toughing" it out. And don't tell me Brett Favre doesn't screw up, because he makes PLENTY of stupid plays every year.
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Postby deluxe_247 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:06 pm

34=Sweetness wrote: And, when did toughness when any games? When Brett Favre "toughs" it out with injuries, he usually screws up more and it hurts the team. He threw 22 INTs in the regular season while he was "toughing" it out. And don't tell me Brett Favre doesn't screw up, because he makes PLENTY of stupid plays every year.


wow you are stretching comparing vick to favre here. this years stats:

favre 4088 yds passing...30tds,22 ints
vick 2313 yds.............. 14tds,12 ints 3 rushing tds


you argue that favre threw more ints..well favre had 540 passing attempts to vicks 321. obviously if you throw more, you are going to get picked more..and there is a big difference in the number of attempts there.
meanwhile favre had 1 fumble lost compared to vicks 7, so if you add that into the equation, favre had 23 turnovers and vick had 19, and vick played in one less game. thats really not too much difference.
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Postby 34=Sweetness » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:26 pm

deluxe_247 wrote:
34=Sweetness wrote: And, when did toughness when any games? When Brett Favre "toughs" it out with injuries, he usually screws up more and it hurts the team. He threw 22 INTs in the regular season while he was "toughing" it out. And don't tell me Brett Favre doesn't screw up, because he makes PLENTY of stupid plays every year.


wow you are stretching comparing vick to favre here. this years stats:

favre 4088 yds passing...30tds,22 ints
vick 2313 yds.............. 14tds,12 ints 3 rushing tds


you argue that favre threw more ints..well favre had 540 passing attempts to vicks 321. obviously if you throw more, you are going to get picked more..and there is a big difference in the number of attempts there.
meanwhile favre had 1 fumble lost compared to vicks 7, so if you add that into the equation, favre had 23 turnovers and vick had 19, and vick played in one less game. thats really not too much difference.
If you had read my post, I wasnt comparing them statswise but stating that Favre hurts his team often when he himself plays hurt. Many of the interceptions last year were because of the thumb thing.
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Postby deluxe_247 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:35 pm

34=Sweetness wrote:
deluxe_247 wrote:
34=Sweetness wrote: And, when did toughness when any games? When Brett Favre "toughs" it out with injuries, he usually screws up more and it hurts the team. He threw 22 INTs in the regular season while he was "toughing" it out. And don't tell me Brett Favre doesn't screw up, because he makes PLENTY of stupid plays every year.


wow you are stretching comparing vick to favre here. this years stats:

favre 4088 yds passing...30tds,22 ints
vick 2313 yds.............. 14tds,12 ints 3 rushing tds


you argue that favre threw more ints..well favre had 540 passing attempts to vicks 321. obviously if you throw more, you are going to get picked more..and there is a big difference in the number of attempts there.
meanwhile favre had 1 fumble lost compared to vicks 7, so if you add that into the equation, favre had 23 turnovers and vick had 19, and vick played in one less game. thats really not too much difference.
If you had read my post, I wasnt comparing them statswise but stating that Favre hurts his team often when he himself plays hurt. Many of the interceptions last year were because of the thumb thing.


i know, my point was that favre always is injured and toughing it out, but his mistakes you were talking about dont really differ that much from the person you were defending..if that makes sense :-? i think he didnt hurt his team too bad playing thru injuries considering his stats and where his team is. but nevermind all this, this thread isnt about favre..sorry to interject. ;-)
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Postby SwiperNoSwiping » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:53 pm

I think Atlanta is smart to give him a big contract. Bigger than Manning's? I don't know that I would go that far. Manning is consistent as they come. He plays every game, throws for 4000 yds every year, and always throws 25+ TDs. This year was an aberration, but he has put those numbers up for years now. He is worth his money.

Vick is still signing contracts on promise and potential. He has huge upside sure, but he is an injury risk. The way he plays will make him that way. I think Atlanta will make a run at Muhammad in the offseason to become their #1 WR. Also, don't be surprised to see them spend a #1 pick on a lineman to protect him, and likely another pick to help on their line. Gotta protet him now that they are paying him top dollar.

The sad thing a straight up comparison may not be fair since the NFC is so much weaker than the AFC. Vick may make it to the Super Bowl before Manning. They just have to get by Philly and maybe Green Bay, where as Manning will have to get past New England and Pittsburgh. Just a tougher road for the Colts in my opinion...
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Postby VHawk15 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:45 pm

You've said that I only mention one thing in people's post. So, I will comment on every single thing you've said.

WatchMeDisappear wrote:The thing about you is that you take one thing someone says and throws everything else he says out the window.


Oh, really? Do you have some proof on that? Have you studied several of my posts and come to your conclusion or are you just trying to find a way to belittle me instead of my point?

WatchMeDisappear wrote:I didnt say just Manning on of those teams, I said Manning or McNabb or Culpepper.


The same goes for any of them. They are all elite QB's and they all had elite years this year. There is simply a huge difference between an elite QB (especially when they just had a career year, or the best year a QB's ever had) and a good WR. There's a difference value wise and dollars wise.

WatchThemDisappear wrote:And I'd say Andre Johnson is probably a top 5 WR, Roy top 10 when healthy.


Well, then I expect you to stand by that all year and be the leader of the Andre Johnson bandwagon. I'd like for you to try to tell me that Andre Johnson is better than one out of Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Joe Horn, Javon Walker, Chad Johnson, Torry Holt, etc. Same for Roy Williams.

WatchMeDisappear wrote:The point is you could have stated the same thing for just about any team and say they could make the SB.


Okay, so now you're going to change your story to any of the WR's I mentioned instead of three elite QB's. Well, you're still wrong. If you told the San Francisco 49ers, the Cleveland Browns, the Washinton Redskins, the Chicago Bears, the Arizona Cardinals, the Dallas Cowboys, the Oakland Raiders, the Tennessee Titans, the Cincinatti Bengals and just about any other nondivision-winner that they would automatically win the Super Bowl if they had Andre Johnson or Roy Williams, then they would point and laugh at you.

This is simply because in order to win the Super Bowl, you must have several other holes filled before you worry about a WR. And my point was if the Falcons could pick up a top 12-15ish WR in the league (which again, are a little less expensive than the three best QB's), then they would be unstoppable and Super Bowl-bound. But, like I mentioned, this is because they already have pretty much every hole filled, besides maybe the O-Line.
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Postby maddog60 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:52 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
34=Sweetness wrote:Im pretty sure Vick has a better win percentage when he plays than Brett Favre.


He may, but winning does not correlate into toughness.


Sorry, but you don't win an NFL championship on toughness. You have to actually play in the Super Bowl and win the game. Remember when Vick beat Green Bay in Lambeau a few years back in the playoffs before that feat was ever accomplished before? I don't care what the stats look like, Michael Vick makes a difference on the Falcon's. He wins games...


All very well and good, but my original argument that these statements sprang from was a retort that Vick is not as someone else claimed the toughest QB in football. Favre and his career was what I offered as undeniable proof there is at least one (though I would claim many) QBs tougher than Vick.
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