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Postby Fantasy-Sports-Forum » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:44 pm

Vicks stats are always bad, but he is very exciting to watch. But you kind of have to look at it from an outside point of view with him. When Vick plays they win, when he doesn't they lose. He is doing something whether the stats reflect that or not.
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Postby maddog60 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:59 pm

Fantasy-Sports-Forum wrote:Vicks stats are always bad, but he is very exciting to watch. But you kind of have to look at it from an outside point of view with him. When Vick plays they win, when he doesn't they lose. He is doing something whether the stats reflect that or not.


I would never argue that he's exciting to watch, but exciting does not equal good.

Look, I'll try to explain again how the "Falcons win with Vick" theory is flawed. First, you would have to prove that its an isolated factor, that nothing else changed in order to place him as the source of their winning. Changes in head coaching, offensive line coach, defnsive players, maturity of Alge Crumpler, a soft schedule, different offensive schemes, all of these factors would have to be considered or eliminated before you make that argument. Of course no one has.

Secondly, if he's doing something, what is it? Unless you actually intend to propose Vick has some supernatural power that are feeble mortal minds can't comprehend, let alone notice, then there must be evidence on all that game film of him doing something that attributes to their winning that isn't a statistic. Once again, no one has actually answered the question of what it is Vick does.

Until you can say he contributes to these wins (like the GB game) you can't claim he's the reason they win. Well you can, but in any serious debate on the matter you'd be scoffed at for lack of supporting evidence.
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Postby Fantasy-Sports-Forum » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:18 pm

Its because of the 1 big play factor....

Here is my theory.... Most games end the way they do because of one or two big plays during a game. That may be a touchdown pass, interception or whatever else. It changes the momentum of a game. Vick is ALWAYS involved in that one big play. Carolina at Atlant late in the season for instance. Carolina was red hot regardless of record and Vick makes a BIG play diving into the endzone that made the differance in that game. One could argue he does this in almost EVERY game. One big play doesnt sound like much when a reciever goes for 180 yards or someone rushes for 150 yeards, but without one big play to gain some sort of momentum things may change in a game. If Vick doesnt score there is no field goal to win, so you cant say the kicker won that game. Its a chain link series of events in football. I argree he is not the best statiscitcal QB, but look at Tim Duncan in the NBA. Never does anything special, just a decent night every night and he is one of the best players to play the game of basketball.
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Postby goleafsgo96 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:07 pm

maddog60 wrote:
Demented Avenger wrote:
Demented Avenger wrote:The Eagles' return unit isn't better.


Look at the numbers. Atlanta is better at returning punts, the Eagles at returning kick offs. So, no Atlanta is not a better return unit than the Eagles. Then when you consider the Eagles have a better kicker and a better return coverage, that could only swing things in the Eagles favor on returns, not atlanta's.


Maddog, all he said was the eagles return unit isnt better, and hes right. He didnt that Atlantas return unit is better. Like you said, its pretty much a wash, so his statement is true.
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Postby Demented Avenger » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:40 pm

eaglesrule wrote:well it was posited that the atlanta special teams was better than the eagles -- which is why I was sarcastic, as kicking is part of special teams.


Where was this posited?

Demented Avenger wrote:
Demented Avenger wrote:The Eagles' return unit isn't better.


That's all I said. I said this in response to eaglesrule who said the Eagles were better in every aspect of the game, as an example of one of the aspects they weren't better in. I also said that having a good return unit leads to good field position, which coupled with Atlanta's run game will make it easier to lean on the Eagles if the Falcons get ahead.

"I said it was their "defensive weakness", meaning that if they are going to get hurt on defense, it will be via the run, not the pass. That matches up well with how Atlanta can hurt them."


OK you have a huge armored car, right? Very tough to get into. Would you try attacking the steel-welded frame, or the hinges of the door? While both are strong, the hinges are weaker, and so they are called the "weakness of the armored car." No logical fallacy there.


Rush defense:

Atlanta: 2nd in NFC (yardage)
Eagles: 6th in NFC


Pass defense:

Eagles: 6th in NFC (yardage)
Atlanta: 12th


Scoring defense:
Eagles 1st (16.2 ppg)
Falcons 6th (21.1 ppg)

But if you look at the teams they have played, the Eagles' opponents scoring average is about 3 points below the Falcons' opponents (who had to play 2 of the 3 top scoring teams in the NFL). That makes scoring offense a little more even.


With regards to special teams.... The Eagles give up 0.1 yards less on average per kickoff. By contrast, the Falcons opponents net an aveage of 2.3 yards MORE per kickoff.
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Postby Demented Avenger » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:05 pm

goleafsgo96 wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
Demented Avenger wrote:
Demented Avenger wrote:The Eagles' return unit isn't better.


Look at the numbers. Atlanta is better at returning punts, the Eagles at returning kick offs. So, no Atlanta is not a better return unit than the Eagles. Then when you consider the Eagles have a better kicker and a better return coverage, that could only swing things in the Eagles favor on returns, not atlanta's.


Maddog, all he said was the eagles return unit isnt better, and hes right. He didnt that Atlantas return unit is better. Like you said, its pretty much a wash, so his statement is true.


Thanks goleafs. ;-D
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Postby eaglesrule » Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:58 pm

btw. eagles won. just thought I would add that.
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Postby Demented Avenger » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:52 pm

Good call, and a great game for the Eagles. I claim a minor victory in Kerney outperforming Kearse. I am a clairvoyant genius!

On a side note, I think about half my posts are arguing with eaglesrule and maddog60. The funny thing is, I like the Eagles (a lot more before they got T.O., but I still like them). Good luck in the S.B., I'll be pulling for you.

T.O. is still a whiny little diva, though. ;-D
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Postby maddog60 » Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:49 pm

Demented,

Sorry if the arguing got a little heated. I had misinterpretted your original statement as the Eagles being worse in returning for the game, hence my arguing.
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Postby eaglesrule » Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:33 pm

well at any rate -- pats probably win. but let's see if owens plays. im sure they will need to knock him out for him to sit out.

maybe just maybe they will have a problem with a running qb, doesn't seem like they have faced that too much. maybe a 4wr set with owens, westbrook, pinkston, lewis? the latter two are wimpy as hell, but also way fast. reid isn't above trying something wack, unlike dungy or cowher.

Im actually glad in a way, to be the best, you gotta beat the best. eagles are inferior, but beating the pats, there can be no doubt either. lets face it: sherman, mora, tice or martz weren't beating the pats. eagles have a good, but different d, maybe the type of d the pats aren't used to?

im happy either way. birds in great shape for the years to come -- low cap, tons of picks, things are finally looking up.
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