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Postby Carolina Culpepper » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:28 pm

hastur wrote:my top 10 list would be all linemen, offense and defense, except for a QB.

All coaches start rebuilding with linemen. They do this for a living. We don't. I will assume they know more than us.

Randy Moss??? are you guys nuts? he wouldn't make my top 50. He's a great receiver, yes, but not someone to build a team around.


Since it appears that you are a Cowboy fan could your opinion of Moss merely be an attempt to cover up for your teams reverse Herschel blunder of passing up Moss twice in the first round of the 98 draft before the Vikings took him? He has since torched the Cowboys every time the Vikings have played them. The only team he has better numbers against is the Packers and that is because we have to play them twice a year. Seems like since 98 when the Vikings picked up Moss they have been to the playoffs 4 times and the NFC championship game twice. Let's see now the Cowboys have been to the playoffs how many times since 98..... and who actually is their #1 WR? Have they actually had one in the last few years? Maybe, just maybe, if they were given a "do-over" in the 98 draft they just might, given another chance, have taken Moss in the first round in the top 10 spots.
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Postby Carolina Culpepper » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:44 pm

As to the continuing Vick debate. Listen you can argue that it doesn't matter that he doesn't get 300 yard passing games but I think this last Sunday is an example of why it does. Teams are starting to figure out that if you can stop Vick's running and force him to pass that it will be very difficult for him to beat you. Truth be told until Vick develops into a decent passer it will get more difficult for him to put up the running numbers that he has. I think teams will get wise to him. Again just think about how stunning a stat this really is. In over 40 games played he has only ONE game of over 300 yards passing and a lifetime completion percentage of barely over 50%. As someone just stated before me his stats look alot like Quincy Carters! Eventually those kind of numbers will catch up to him. I like Vick, I really do. He is fun to watch. But if I'm building an NFL team to win with, I would want a more proficient passer who perhaps also can run some like a McNabb or Culpepper or a pure passer like Manning hands down before Vick.
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Postby hastur » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:33 am

No. It could have been Moss, Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, or Michael Irvin. A WR is not my first pick. Or second.

I said Randy Moss is a great receiver, didn't I? Why the superficial history lesson then? 19 different teams passed up on him. I am not sore or irate about it. I agree with it. He is a VERY talented, VERY selfish player. I don't want him on my team. I would want Culpepper! My decision not to take Moss isn't based on a short-sighted view of jealousy or "I wish the cowboys had drafted him and now I'm sorry". Pa-leez! You can have him!

By the way, why exactly is your team actively trying to get rid of....err, willing to trade him? He's not worth the trouble. He, in my opinion, is like Jeff George. Supremely talented, but a waste of time because of his attitude.

I would take players in this order, though other factors would influence the general order(I.E. if its my 10th pick, and Jonathon Ogden is still out there, I'll take him)

QB
DT
RB
DT
OT
OG
DE
OG
C
CB
MLB
FS
WR
WR
OT
DE
SS
CB
FB
OLB

I know this is very general, just making a point about my initial statement saying I wouldn't take Moss(or any other WR for that matter) that early in the draft.
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Postby SeaWolf » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:52 am

hastur wrote:No. It could have been Moss, Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, or Michael Irvin. A WR is not my first pick. Or second.

I said Randy Moss is a great receiver, didn't I? Why the superficial history lesson then? 19 different teams passed up on him. I am not sore or irate about it. I agree with it. He is a VERY talented, VERY selfish player. I don't want him on my team. I would want Culpepper! My decision not to take Moss isn't based on a short-sighted view of jealousy or "I wish the cowboys had drafted him and now I'm sorry". Pa-leez! You can have him!

By the way, why exactly is your team actively trying to get rid of....err, willing to trade him? He's not worth the trouble. He, in my opinion, is like Jeff George. Supremely talented, but a waste of time because of his attitude.

I would take players in this order, though other factors would influence the general order(I.E. if its my 10th pick, and Jonathon Ogden is still out there, I'll take him)

QB
DT
RB
DT
OT
OG
DE
OG
C
CB
MLB
FS
WR
WR
OT
DE
SS
CB
FB
OLB

I know this is very general, just making a point about my initial statement saying I wouldn't take Moss(or any other WR for that matter) that early in the draft.


If you are taking a QB in round 1, why do you wait until round 13 to pick a WR. If they can't catch the ball, then your QB isn't as good. Look at Hasselbeck. Do you want a top tier WR, or do you want Jackson or Robinson?
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:03 pm

well if you draft a qb, you had better draft someone to protect him shortly thereafter. then you worry about wr. you are rebuilding after all. you shore down the protection, then go on the attack. but you need to get the qb, or you have no offensive leader -- and good ones are the ratrest thing of all.
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Postby SwiperNoSwiping » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:16 pm

I don't think I would have Brady #1 Bag...

I would go:

1. Manning
2. Vick
3. LT
4. Moss
5. Culpepper
6. McNabb
7. Freeney
8. Lewis (higher if younger)
9. Reed
10. Peppers
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There's WAY too much love for Moss here...

Postby daullaz » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:55 pm

The original post indicated that if all the NFL players were thrown into a draft pool today, what would be your organization's top ten, right?

You see how much negativity Moss brings to the team, right? He's a head case! He doesn't just need a change of scenery (a la Dillon and Owens); he needs way more than that. Moss is just a failed drug test away from being Ricky Williams (and for all his talent, you don't want HIM as the cornerstone of your franchise, do you?)

That said, you have to look at past production along with projected longevity at a high level. As good as some of the older veterans are (like Favre) I wouldn't make them my first pick in a do-over draft, because at some point in the next five years, they'll be gone for good.

So, without further ado, here we go...

1. Peyton Manning
Someone made the argument that he wasn't any good with out Edge. That was his rookie year. Look at his brother's rookie year and tell me if you think anyone's giving up on him. Remember when Edge was hurt and Dominic Rhodes, an undrafted free agent, stepped in? If you have Manning on your team, you know you can just hand over the offense to him and worry about protection and defense. Put any of his receivers on another team and tell if they are anywhere near as good (Marvin would be pretty close). That's my leader.

2. LaDanian Tomlinson
He's a complete running back. He has showed no signs of slowing down. He's only 25. He has been "can't miss" from the beginning. The Chargers had Michael Vick in their hands that year, and they traded down because they wanted LT. For the next 6-7 years, he will be among the league leaders in yards and TDs.

3. Ed Reed
If Ray Lewis left town tomorrow, Baltimore would still have one of the top defenses in the league. Reed can tackle like a linebacker, cover like a corner, and fly like a punt return man. The safety position is quickly progressing in terms of its importance to a defense, and Reed exemplifies everything you're looking for in a safety. At 26 years old, he will have opposing team's offenses shaking heads for the next 10 years.

4. Richard Seymour
He is unstoppable in the middle of the defensive line. The "no-name" Patriot defense that dominates each year is led by Seymour, who is only 25. He combines his amazing quickness with unparallel instincts to dominate the offense off the snap. He is constantly around the ball. As good as Seymour is now, he could still get better.

5. Tom Brady
Many people argue that Brady lacks the numbers to be considered an elite quarterback and thatat he is a product of a system. But though he materialized out of nowhere, he did win two NFL championships. The system can only take you so far (see Roethlisberger, Ben). He rivals Peyton Manning with his in-week preparation for the game. He owns all of the little traits that successful quarterbacks have. Confidence, nerves of steel, athleticism, and arm strength are just part of the whole. Every time Brady is out on the field, he believes his team will win the game, and he does everything he can to see that they do.

6. Ray Lewis
After 9 years in the NFL, everyone on both sides of the ball and in the stands knows where Ray Lewis is at every point of the game. He is the unquestioned leader of the Baltimore defense, and his abilities as a playmaker set him ahead of most defenders in the league. At this point in his career, Lewis is more about production than potential. A few years younger and he would have been higher on the list.

7. Donovan McNabb
A step underneath Manning and Brady, but still one of the elite players in the league. He doesn't have the rings (yet), he doesn't generate as much excitement as some other players. But he is the quintessential leader on and off the field. While his numbers might never lead the league, they will be solid. His presence makes everyone on the team better.

8. Kris Jenkins
Another dominating middle man in a defense line, Jenkins is still growing, and his limit is the sky. He is technically flawless in the trenches, and once he becomes more mature, he will solidify a defensive line for the forseeable future. When his shoulder is fully healed, he will continue his evolution into a defensive cornerstone.

9. Brian Urlacher
Urlacher is outstanding in all aspects of the linebacker position. He exhibitis quick feet, a great initial burst, and a nose for the football. His all-out style of play inserts fear into any ball carrier's mind. With a whole offseason to heal, he still has his best years ahead of him.

10. Chris McAlister
The main ingredient to success as a cornerback is the ability to take a receiver out of the game. McAlister doesn't put up the numbers he once used to, but that is a result of neutralizing an offense's number one threat consistently throughout each game. Smart quarterbacks refuse to throw the ball to his side of the field. He is the best cover corner in the league, and at 27, could still get better.

Other players I wish I could fit in: Dwight Freeney, Julian Peterson, Champ Bailey, Daunte Culpepper, LaVar Arrington.
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Re: There's WAY too much love for Moss here...

Postby Carolina Culpepper » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:30 pm

Daullaz qoute -
"You see how much negativity Moss brings to the team, right? He's a head case! He doesn't just need a change of scenery (a la Dillon and Owens); he needs way more than that. Moss is just a failed drug test away from being Ricky Williams (and for all his talent, you don't want HIM as the cornerstone of your franchise, do you?)"


Here we go again. At the risk of repeating myself to the point of insanity...... If Moss is such a negative why as recently as last week, after both the Washington "walk-off" and the "moon over Green Bay"incidents, classy and smart Colts coach Tony Dungy said that Randy Moss may be the most game changing and valuable player in the NFL. Certainly seems like he has a different opinion on Moss's value than you. Also, as I have said over and over again, if Moss is such a negative on his team why is it that the Vikings have made the playoffs in 4 of his first 7 years in the league and been to the NFC championship game twice in that span. They have had a .500 or better record 5 of his 7 years and have a play-off record of 5 - 4. Any observer of the Vike's will tell you that this is because of Moss, not in spite of him. Also on another note the Vikings have sold out EVERY GAME at the Metrodome since he was drafted by them in 98 which gives him the box-office draw award that so many are using to justify Vick's status in this mock draft.
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Postby mtryanks12 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:36 pm

as a part of the game, moss is invaluable, but off the field, he is a nuisance. Some teams can't even put up with his antics, that they decide that it's not worth keeping him. Sure, he's helping the vikings A TON, but if Tice thinks that it would be better for him to be somewhetre else, go right aahead.
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Postby deluxe_247 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56 pm

i really enjoy seeing all these ravens listed :-)
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