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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:34 pm

joshyboy72 wrote:By the way, nice sig Transmogrifier. The second line of it I mean.


Thanks, I get a kick out of it. :-b

no1cowboysfan wrote:Yeah, yeah...

We'll see how Brady does next year.


Of course. I mean, he has to do this twice to prove himself, right? Oh, how about three times?

:-b
Brady: a "very mediocre QB" - no1cowboysfan

Mitchell: "To me, the Patriots are not that good. ... We're the better team... A good team crushes that Patriot team. I'm telling you, they're not that good.'
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Postby mtryanks12 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:37 pm

I think he'll go early. the problem with the Pats is that Brady throws nearly the same to al his guys, instead of havign a #1 man and #2 man. I salute him for trying to include everyone, but it kils their fantasy value. Deion Branch does the same amount of catching as David Patten does, mostly.
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Postby no1cowboysfan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:44 pm

1) system QB
2) great all-around team helps him win considerably
3) 14 QBs had a better rating than him this year (8 were starters)
4) 9 QBs passed for more yards than him this year
5) Brady was 11th WORST in INTs this year

we have a difference of opinion. that is all... and i don't want to hijack this thread moreso than it has been... :-D
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Postby black_hawk8888 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:10 pm

Well, Brady has 3 SB rings in the last 4 years and all Cowboy fans have from the last 4 years is broken hearts. You could also say Aikman was a product of his environment and system - that he wasn't truly great. That's a bunch of crap. Aikman was one of the best pocket QBs ever as is Brady. This is the NFL buddy - if you win multiple SuperBowls you are good.
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Postby no1cowboysfan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:43 pm

That may be true... but its possible that we have differing opinions of what is considered a "mediocre" QB. I define mediocre as anyone that falls under the OK string of QBs. I'm not saying he is bad... but I'm saying he isn't in the top-tier. Aikman also fits this category. As does Terry Bradshaw. You won't ever hear me say Aikman was one of the "greats" in the QB slot... he had tons of talent around him, and a great line (Though one could argue he had a little better stats than Brady).

Brady, with a growing-in-age defense, and a few key personnel changes, will have to prove he is a top-tier QB to me if he can do this next year. Aikman "proved" himself to me 3 times, as Brady did, but he still isn't one of the "greats" we speak of when we compare his name to Marino, Montana, Manning (I guess now we have to)...

What I'm saying is that if you gave me one draft pick for a QB out of any NFl QB, my first overall wouldn't be Brady. It'd be Manning. And Brady wouldn't get picked until around when the others of his skill class are taken...

I now declare this thread hijacked.

To Branch, I must say that he did deserve to win MVP for that game... very impressive preformance. I doubt he'll be drafted any higher because of it, though.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:12 pm

no1cowboysfan wrote:That may be true... but its possible that we have differing opinions of what is considered a "mediocre" QB. I define mediocre as anyone that falls under the OK string of QBs. I'm not saying he is bad... but I'm saying he isn't in the top-tier. Aikman also fits this category. As does Terry Bradshaw. You won't ever hear me say Aikman was one of the "greats" in the QB slot... he had tons of talent around him, and a great line (Though one could argue he had a little better stats than Brady).

Brady, with a growing-in-age defense, and a few key personnel changes, will have to prove he is a top-tier QB to me if he can do this next year. Aikman "proved" himself to me 3 times, as Brady did, but he still isn't one of the "greats" we speak of when we compare his name to Marino, Montana, Manning (I guess now we have to)...

What I'm saying is that if you gave me one draft pick for a QB out of any NFl QB, my first overall wouldn't be Brady. It'd be Manning. And Brady wouldn't get picked until around when the others of his skill class are taken...


So Marino is great because of his passing records? Same with Manning? And Brady can be great if he wins a fourth Superbowl? Isn't this arbitrary?

You say that Brady wouldn't be picked until others of his skill class are taken--what skills doesn't he have? He can throw the deep ball with the best of them, is one of the best in reading defense, of moving safeties with his eyes, of not throwing interceptions. And he manages the game better than anyone else playing today. Isn't that what a QB does?

I find it amazing that Brady gets knocked for his system, or having good players around him, when Manning is never knocked for having Harrison and Edge around him.

People are wowed by Peyton's gaudy numbers, but he cannot manage the game well. Or, at least, he cannot manage the game well outdoors.

Manning may have the better arm, but what good is it if he throws the ball to the other team in key situations?
Brady: a "very mediocre QB" - no1cowboysfan

Mitchell: "To me, the Patriots are not that good. ... We're the better team... A good team crushes that Patriot team. I'm telling you, they're not that good.'
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Postby MadScott » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:43 pm

Back to the Branch convo, before injury, he was the main target in that passing offense. In his first couple of games, he got out of the gate early and then when other teams would key on him to shut him down, Givens and crew became free in the secondary. Had Branch not been injured, the Pats have 2 1,000+yd. WRs this season with some nice TD totals to boot.

That being said, I too believe that Branch will be overvalued in the draft. However, this may not be a bad thing as that just means a better player will be available. Prior to injury this last year, I was using Branch as my #3 WR and was getting #2 or better type of production from him. I don't see why he can't keep that production up but I'm going to watch where he comes off the board this year.
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Postby no1cowboysfan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:48 pm

again... Brady threw 14 INTs this season... the 11th most. He still had a 2:1 ratio, which is commendable... but when you compare it to top-tier QBs, he doesn't compete. Yes, he can stay cool under pressure, but in terms of stats, as well as pure passing, he just isn't a stud QB.

I'd compare Brady in the skill class of Bulger... Green... etc. Brady is an alright QB, but when he plays, he doesn't "wow" you. He wins games... but the excitement is defense. Take the 02-03 Bucs into consideration... or the 00-01 Ravens. They both had west coast, durable style offense. It wasn't flashy... but it got the job done. Decent numbers, but nothing spectacular. The defenses won the SBs. I'm not saying Brady is as good as Johnson or Dilfer (well, he's better I mean), but his offense, especially with the addition of Corey Dillon, is of the same mold. A QB in that system can carry out his tasks, and his defene will win the games. Therefore, Brady's a system QB.

Manning, on the other hand, has NO defense (Freeney can't defend everyone). The offense wins games... not the defense. If we were to switch Brady with Manning, so that Brady were on a team that depended solely on him to win games, I don't think he could cut it. Whereas Manning would probably still tear it up.

I'll debate more later... I have work late tonight, and drinking even later.
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Postby disgruntledjetsfan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:15 pm

deluxe_247 wrote:i agree, i think he will go too high in most drafts. i do think he is the best of the patriots receivers, but there are just too many of them for me to feel comfortable starting one of them on my fantasy team. consistency is the key to a great team. ;-D


If the Patriots have a weakness, (besides the injuries in the secondary) it's that they do not have a stand out wide receiver. Branch, Patten, Givens, Brown, Johnson. They are all decent, but I think they need to get someone who could put up a good 1100 yards receiving.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:39 pm

no1cowboysfan wrote:again... Brady threw 14 INTs this season... the 11th most. He still had a 2:1 ratio, which is commendable... but when you compare it to top-tier QBs, he doesn't compete. Yes, he can stay cool under pressure, but in terms of stats, as well as pure passing, he just isn't a stud QB.

I'd compare Brady in the skill class of Bulger... Green... etc. Brady is an alright QB, but when he plays, he doesn't "wow" you. He wins games... but the excitement is defense. Take the 02-03 Bucs into consideration... or the 00-01 Ravens. They both had west coast, durable style offense. It wasn't flashy... but it got the job done. Decent numbers, but nothing spectacular. The defenses won the SBs. I'm not saying Brady is as good as Johnson or Dilfer (well, he's better I mean), but his offense, especially with the addition of Corey Dillon, is of the same mold. A QB in that system can carry out his tasks, and his defene will win the games. Therefore, Brady's a system QB.

Manning, on the other hand, has NO defense (Freeney can't defend everyone). The offense wins games... not the defense. If we were to switch Brady with Manning, so that Brady were on a team that depended solely on him to win games, I don't think he could cut it. Whereas Manning would probably still tear it up.

I'll debate more later... I have work late tonight, and drinking even later.


We'll never agree. There's no point. You ask anyone associated with football, and I bet you can't find one person who says that Brady is a "very mediocre" QB.

You think a QB's job is to pile up stats; I think his job is to manage--and win--games. We'll never agree.
Brady: a "very mediocre QB" - no1cowboysfan

Mitchell: "To me, the Patriots are not that good. ... We're the better team... A good team crushes that Patriot team. I'm telling you, they're not that good.'
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