eaglesrule wrote:yea, except monk was no where near the threat irvin was, and no where near the talent. And irvin was the star wide out for an absoloute dynasty. I don't think monk should get in -- its the hall of fame, not the "hall of pretty good" -- and that is how most people look at him, good, but not great. a lot of those records are solely because of longevity.
And that argument aside -- monk shouldn't have any refelection on irvin. I find it ridiculous that there is a limit each year.
I personally believe irvin got snubbed, and think bag has a point. Emmitt, aikman, irvin and sanders should be no brainers from those teams. I don't see how anyone can argue -- if we all agree that the ultimate goal is to win superbowls -- they were all pivotal to that end, they won 3 straight and are on the short list of nfl dynasties.
Monk was 'pretty good'? Wow...He was great. Statistically in every major category he was ranked higher than Irvin was.
Some of that you can base on longevity. However, you need to take that with a grain of salt. Injuries are a part of the game and you can't measure what players could have done..only what they have done.
Monk also has done a better job keeping his 'nose' clean too. That may come back to get Irvin in the end some too. I am not saying Irvin doesn't belong. I feel he does. But not on the first ballot when other great WRs haven't made it, and not when Monk is looking for room in the Hall.
The Cowboys didn't win 3 straight as you say, it was 3 out of 4, which is great and few teams have done it. But if Super Bowl rings is what it's all about, and Irvin and Monk have the same number of them, that is a moot point.
I agree that Irvin can't be a first ballot if Monk is struggling to get in at all. Irvin will get in though but it won't be easy with all the players in line for the next few years.
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eaglesrule wrote:yea, except monk was no where near the threat irvin was, and no where near the talent. And irvin was the star wide out for an absoloute dynasty. I don't think monk should get in -- its the hall of fame, not the "hall of pretty good" -- and that is how most people look at him, good, but not great. a lot of those records are solely because of longevity.
And that argument aside -- monk shouldn't have any refelection on irvin. I find it ridiculous that there is a limit each year.
I personally believe irvin got snubbed, and think bag has a point. Emmitt, aikman, irvin and sanders should be no brainers from those teams. I don't see how anyone can argue -- if we all agree that the ultimate goal is to win superbowls -- they were all pivotal to that end, they won 3 straight and are on the short list of nfl dynasties.
Monk was 'pretty good'? Wow...He was great. Statistically in every major category he was ranked higher than Irvin was.
Some of that you can base on longevity. However, you need to take that with a grain of salt. Injuries are a part of the game and you can't measure what players could have done..only what they have done.
Monk also has done a better job keeping his 'nose' clean too. That may come back to get Irvin in the end some too. I am not saying Irvin doesn't belong. I feel he does. But not on the first ballot when other great WRs haven't made it, and not when Monk is looking for room in the Hall.
The Cowboys didn't win 3 straight as you say, it was 3 out of 4, which is great and few teams have done it. But if Super Bowl rings is what it's all about, and Irvin and Monk have the same number of them, that is a moot point.
I'm with you guys... Monk should get in before Irvin... and Irvin should get in eventually. But this "Anti-Cowboy" thing is stupid...
You see, here's me thinking the bias was against prostitute-soliciting coke-fiends. But I guess its Cowboys... when some of the greatest players in the Hall (Lilly, Staubach, Ditka, Laundry, Schramm) played for/accosiated with Dallas. Hey, Irvin's an African-American too, maybe the HOF is biased against them... oh wait.
well the only areas that monk is significantly ahead are yards and receptions -- and he got a lot of junk time yards and receptions later in his career.
The point is, art monk was good -- really good. But he didn't strike the fear into people like irvin and the cowboys did. Monk wasn't a leader on a team that won 3 straight super bowls either. Irvin was the key cog. He was the set up weapon to emmitt. Irvin has the stats, championships and ultimate talent.
Monk was a very good performer, if unspectactular. I don't think many people consider him "spectacular" or "explosive" and that hurts when a fair amount of your stats are based on longevity etc.
I personally think both should be in the hall -- but I certainly don't think it is criminal that he be kept out either. And I most definitely don't think he should be in ahead of Irvin.
Is there anyone here who would take monk in an all time draft over irvin? I think the group who would is a minority.
The fact is that irvin was a top three talent on one of the nfl's legendary dynasties. He has a fantastic mix of team and individual success and has the "wow" factor two. he was awesome. The only thing keeping him out is his mouth and some BS consideration about being "first ballot"
monk reminds me of a wade boggs HOFer -- probably should be in, because eventually the stats are the stats. But no one was going to the stadium to see any wade boggs.
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Brian Dawkins played in second grade.
A couple of things. I did see Monk throughout his career and I would agree with eaglesrule that he was very good but not great. Irvin was better receiver but had a shorter career plus was not what you'd call a solid citizen. Personally I don't if either one gets in the HOF, since as I've said on other threads it's too frickin easy to get in, six a year is just too many.
On the Cowboys thing. Maybe I do have a bias in a way against the Cowboys since over the course of my watching pro football they have been one of the most over-hyped, over-exposed teams ever. Think back to those days where we only had a game or two to watch on the weekend, the Cowboys were always on TV. The talking heads were always yakking about Tom Landry and Jimmy Johnson. Even the freakin cheerleaders were media celebrities. The Cowboys were referred to as "America's Team".
Should I hold that against individual players? Probably not, but I'm not going to shed too many tears if a Cowboy feels snubbed since he's probably had his share of the limelight and more already.
eaglesrule wrote:monk reminds me of a wade boggs HOFer -- probably should be in, because eventually the stats are the stats. But no one was going to the stadium to see any wade boggs.
you know the funny thing about what you just said? read this thread and what i wrote....last week...and then back up what you just wrote.
eaglesrule wrote:well the only areas that monk is significantly ahead are yards and receptions -- and he got a lot of junk time yards and receptions later in his career.
The point is, art monk was good -- really good. But he didn't strike the fear into people like irvin and the cowboys did. Monk wasn't a leader on a team that won 3 straight super bowls either. Irvin was the key cog. He was the set up weapon to emmitt. Irvin has the stats, championships and ultimate talent.
Monk was a very good performer, if unspectactular. I don't think many people consider him "spectacular" or "explosive" and that hurts when a fair amount of your stats are based on longevity etc.
I personally think both should be in the hall -- but I certainly don't think it is criminal that he be kept out either. And I most definitely don't think he should be in ahead of Irvin.
Is there anyone here who would take monk in an all time draft over irvin? I think the group who would is a minority.
The fact is that irvin was a top three talent on one of the nfl's legendary dynasties. He has a fantastic mix of team and individual success and has the "wow" factor two. he was awesome. The only thing keeping him out is his mouth and some BS consideration about being "first ballot"
monk reminds me of a wade boggs HOFer -- probably should be in, because eventually the stats are the stats. But no one was going to the stadium to see any wade boggs.
As far as garbage time and receptions, the last 4 seasons he played, he averaged 34 catches a year, 434 yds per season, and 2 tds. That is not really tacking the stats late in his career.
I will also argue the point that Monk was a top 3 talent on their team. If you choose to dismiss that that is up to you.
As far as the only thing keeping him out on the first ballot being his mouth, it appears to me it's his mouth, his nose, and apparently other body parts that surfaced during his stay in Dallas.
If you are looking for people who would choose Monk over Irvin, the line would start behind me.
Again, I am saying Irvin belongs in the Hall. But no way in front of Monk.
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by OwenTheBlonde » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:39 pm 
