I don't see what Monk has to do with any of this. Yes, Monk deserves to get in, but just because he hasn't been selected doesn't mean we should keep Irvin out too.
Like eaglesrule was saying, IRvin was a more spectacular receiver than Monk was.
99% of the people in the cafe say that Jim Brown is the best RB ever, even better than Emmitt Smith, even though Emmitt has the records. And your basis for that argument is that Jim Brown had a higher yards per carry, blah, blah, blah.
So how can you not use that same theory with Irvin? Irvin played less years than Monk, and was a more spectacular receiver than Monk. Irvin was double teamed on practically every 3rd down of his career, and still found a way to put up ridiculous stats on a run-oriented offense.
By the way, it's the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of GOOD DECENT PEOPLE. If off the field issues are a reason to keep someone out of the Hall, we need to go ahead and kick OJ Simpson and Lawrence Taylor out.
So how can you say Jim Brown is a better RB than Emmitt even though Emmitt has more yards, TD's and SUper Bowl rings, but then sit there and say that Art Monk deserves to get in before Irvin does, PERIOD?
Seems like you're bending the argument to your own agenda each way. In Jim Brown's case, he's the better RB because he had a higher YPC than Emmitt did.
But in Irvin's case, Monk is the better WR because he had the longevity?
Actually Brown's nine seasons destroy Emmit's first nine (mainly due to playing 48 less games but yet about equal in yardage and both had HOF careers if they never played another down; whereas, Irvin enjoys a smaller edge over Monk if you only compare to Monk's first 12 seasons, compared to Brown vs Smith. And the 13th season was Monk's second best of his career so that's a factor. Bringing Brown vs Smith into the argument doesn't work. WRs seem to have a problem getting into the HOF for some reason and I wouldn't be surprised if many voters didn't want to vote Irvin first ballot to make sure he understands the honor it is (which I believe he does). Both should be in. And I don't know know why either aren't. Actually just looked up Lofton and maybe we shouldn't be surprised about Monk because they were fairly similar statistically with Lofton being the career yardage leader for WRs when he retired yet it took him 5 years after being eligible to get in. Monk is a lesser candidate than Lofton so he should be spotted 2 or 3 years before REALLY wondering. Irvin will likely go in first because he is perceived as the bigger playmaker.
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well, ok -- so maybe wade boggs does have his supporters.
more to the point, I don't think anyone is telling their grandkids that they say wade boggs play. I feel the same way with art monk. and I am not saying that any of them don't deserve to be in specifically, I don't really care. But monk is a borderline case. I don't always think sheer attrition should be rewarded.
Art monk also never had double digit td totals and only broke 1000 yards 5 times out of 16 seasons. His highest total of td's was 8 (twice), then one 7 td season, a couple of 6's. his highest yardage is 1372 (7tds) yards followed by 1,226 (2 tds)and 1,186 (8 tds). Frankly, that is very good, but he hardly dominated.
Irvin has more 1000 (7) yard seasons than Monk in 4 less seasons.
His best three seasons: 1603 (10), 1523 (8), 1396 (7) -- I mean his third best season was as good as monk's.
Ok -- if we take their best 6 seasons and compare the totals
here is irvin's:
598 receptions, 9330 yards, 48 td's
here is monks:
474 receptions, 6647 yards, 34 td's
its not all that close.
I mean, how is this really a debate -- the meat of irvin's career is superior to the meat of monk's.
When you figure that irvin had more 1000 yard seasons than monk -- had single season td totals higher than monk ever did, they are only 3 td's apart career, irvin has the superior yards per catch, are only 800 yards apart (monk had four more years) and monk only has 190 more catches (190 more than irvin -- while 139 came from hanging on) -- its not a debate.
Irvin had more explosive seasons on the whole than monk. Was more explosive and more talented, and they were similarly gifted size wise -- how can it be argued? The stats favor Irvin honestly -- if you look at the meat of their careers. FOr half of his career, he was 1000 yard receiver. Irvin played suffieicently long (12 seasons) and its not like he retired early to preserve himself.
Monk never had a season like this :111 catches, 1603 yards, 10 td's
his best: 106, 1372, 7td's.
seems to me like monk was a pretty good possesion receiver who played for a long time.
Irvin was a truly great wr. a Key cog in a three straight super bowl run, who created matchup nighmares.
monk was closer to hines ward than randy moss.
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Argue however you choose about it, but personally I think Irvin was left out because of his penchant for cocaine and "self-employed models".
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It might be a couple years before either Monk or Irvin get in. Next years class is just brutal to choose from... 2006: Troy Aikman, Warren Moon, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas, Reggie White. Call White IN. After that, it'll be some very tough choices.
2007: Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Eric Allen, Carnell Lake, Bruce Matthews, Ricky Watters and Tony Boselli.
2008: Cris Carter, Lomas Brown, Jumbo Elliott, Darrell Green, Richmond Webb. 2009: Shannon Sharpe, John Randle, Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Gary Anderson, Larry Centers
So, I don't see Monk or Irvin geting in next year either, but I expect both to be in sometime in the following three years.
Last edited by TTTBone on Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TTTBone wrote:2007: Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Eric Allen, Carnell Lake, Bruce Matthews, Ricky Watters and Tony Boselli
Wow, 2007 is a pretty weak group. Anderson, Cunningham and Lake are almost guaranteed not to make it. Allen is borderline along with Watters and Boselli. Terrell is interesting, but unlikely. Matthews is the only one I see getting on the first try. That might be the year for past finalists to really have a decent shot.