Shut up Freddie - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to Football Talk

Shut up Freddie

Moderator: Football Moderators

Postby kevinoc81 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:24 pm

I haven't voiced my opinion much on the Super Bowl, but I will comment on two points from this eagles rule:

1.) McNabb is a great leader in my opinion. His team follows him and he "usually" performs as a leader.

2.) Like it or not, McNabb is going to be labeled a choker for this game and based on the way one would describe "choking" for ONE single game, he deserves that label. I don't see the double standard. I wasn't here last year at this time, but through talking with my friends and such, I surely labeled Manning a choker in the AFC championship when he threw 4 INTs. Sorry, but throwing 3 INTs in the Super Bowl is going to label you as a choker for THAT game. Especially if those three INTs are (most likely) the difference between a Ring and a runner-up.

You're not a choker when you play as well as you can and get beat. McNabb definately did not play to his ability in the Super Bowl.
kevinoc81
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) DrafterSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2603
Joined: 5 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Football

Postby Free Bagel » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:45 pm

Farve, however, I forgot -- my bad. But even he has had his "choke moments"


Manning? Please. Maybe when he actually wins as many playoff games as mcnabb we can talk. He did less with more this year against the pats. He has as many big game raps against him as mcnabb, and his stretches back to college.


WHAT?!?!? Manning did less with more? Put Manning on the Eagles and Mcnabb on the Colts and I'd venture to guest that the Colts would struggle to nab a wildcard while I could see the Eagles coming close to hitting that 16-0 mark.

If you seriously think Mcnabb is a better leader than Manning then you're fighting a battle you just can't win. I'm sorry, but you have just about the most flawed definition of a leader I've ever seen.

How can you say Manning isn't a great leader? He's practically the offensive coordinator of his team. He tells everyone exactly what to do and they do exactly what he says. When he goes to the sidelines HE makes the gameplan and HE goes over and gets everyone pumped up. I honestly cannot recall any time I've ever seen Mcnabb doing anything on the sideline other than standing still, staring out at the field with his hands in his coat pocket. Usually he's getting jawed at by TO. Owens is pumping him up, or getting him up when he's down, that's a leader's job, what leader have seen stand there and take that?

I mean seriously, after a play on the Colts when they're in a hurry everyone knows exactly what Manning wants them to do. I don't see how you can think Mcnabb can do the same when it was clear in the Super Bowl that no one on the offense knew what was going on, they were all waiting for Mcnabb to tell them what to do and he just flat out didn't. Fraley went up to the line for the hurry up, Mitchell went back to the huddle, and Mcnabb kind of stood in the middle like "so which one are we doing guys?" And now we get news out that a WR had to call a play in the huddle for him because he was dry heaving in a pressure situation, which apparently he's done before? I mean c'mon...There's just so much wrong with this I can't even begin to convey it on the internet.

But with Manning, if they need to get up to the line, Manning damn sure knows how to tell everyone to get up there quickly, then HE calls the play, and everyone FOLLOWS him. Hell he almost has more authority on that team than the head coach.

With the Eagles, I've never seen a group of guys more receptive and openly willing to follow, only having no one to lead them. It was clear from the pregame comments that the Eagles' players were looking for Mcnabb to lead them, but he's just not that kind of personality.

And what the heck does 4th and 26 have to do with anything? That was a football player making a good pass. I would be willing to put a whoooooooooole lot of money on the fact that if anyone was in the huddle saying "this game still isn't over we've still got a shot" before that play, it was not Mcnabb.

I have nothing against Mcnabb or the Eagles personally. I don't like them, I don't hate them. I'm pretty much impartial to them, this is what I see from the outside looking in. It's clear to me that you have an agenda to defend your boy Mcnabb, and I just don't think that's a winnable arguement here.

Mcnabb is a great football player. The Eagles are a great team. Mcnabb is not a great leader. That's all there is to it.
Image
Free Bagel
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertMock(ing) DrafterCafe Musketeer
Posts: 8495
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Titletown, FL

Postby maddog60 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:02 pm

Free Bagel,

Manning did do less with more.

Take TO and any two other Eagles WRs and compare them to Harrison, Stokley, and Wayne. Take LJ Smith and Thomason and compare them to Pollard and Clark.

Manning is a great QB, but he did do less with more. Swap the WRs and Manning doesn't break records this season, while McNabb at the very least makes a serious bid for the year's MVP. Yet when it came to playing the Pats in the playoffs (which is what teams seem to have a problem with in general), Manning could not produce a single TD, whereas McNabb kept it close with a substantially worse arsenal.

Oh, and with McNabb the Eagles still came close to 16-0 (considering if they actually bothered to play their last two games in which they would've been heavily favored, saying they'd have gone 15-1 is not a stretch of the imagination).
maddog60
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 9758
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby maddog60 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:08 pm

Freddie's comments really bother me. I don't care much if the guy makes wise cracks, celebrates constantly, anything to keep Todd Pinkston away from the ball, but this was a slight to the last person he should ever have slighted: TO.

When TO went down, he immediately threw his support behind Mitchell. He was cheering him on in Freddie trying to fill in for TO. Now this is TO, the "villain" of the NFL, the most despised man in all of football. Of course, you didn't see any analysts or sports writers commenting on TO being a team player. (I'll stop myself before I rant on how TO can do no right according to the media).

And, now Freddie Mitchell blames TO for his lack of production in the Superbowl? He slights probably the only man in all of football who gave him any support, deserved or not? This is disgraceful, and its the kind of stuff Reid doesn't tolerate.

See that guy performing behind you in the depths chart Freddie? That's Greg Lewis, and he'll be catching balls and making the playoffs next year while you're struggling to make #4 WR on a 4-12 team. Enjoy!
maddog60
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 9758
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby kevinoc81 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:24 pm

You guys are comparing this all wrong! Who is the better leader? In my opinion, it's Manning, but I don't think McNabb is a bad leader. Until this year McNabb has carried the Eagles. Everyone looked to him to make the plays and be "the guy" in Philly. He did the best he could. I don't think McNabb really choked all that much in years past for not making it to the Super Bowl. I never really saw McNabb cost his team the win in those games.

As for the comparisons you guys are making:

Put McNabb on the Colts and Manning on the Eagles. I bet the Colts go 12-4 or 11-5 or 13-3 and the Eagles go 14-2 or 13-3 or 15-1. Do I think McNabb would have broken Marino's record if he were on the Colts? No. Manning is one of the best pure pocket-passing QBs some of us have ever seen (I am just young enough to have missed Marino in his prime). McNabb is good, but not record-breaking good regardless of his supporting cast. The fact is that Manning is on the Colts. McNabb is on the Eagles. Manning did less with more? How do you figure he did less? Didn't the Eagles lose to the Patriots also? It is not fair to say McNabb did more with less or Manning did less with more. Are you saying the Colts would have lost to the Vikings or Falcons in the playoffs? Are you saying the Eagles could have beaten the Broncos and then the Patriots and made it to the Super Bowl if they were in the AFC? The point is is that both of them lost to the Patriots. It is not fair to knock one more than the other because he, unfortunately had to face the Patriots in the AFC championship game at New Enland, in the snow and the other one got to face them in the Super Bowl in Jacksonville with the weather in the 50s.

They are both great QBs. As a Bear fan I would cherish either of them! Personally, I think Manning is the better QB and Leader, but just because I say that doesn't mean I think McNabb is a bad QB or leader. To be placed just under Manning (which is where I think most people put McNabb in real life and fantasy) is not all that bad of an accomplishment.
kevinoc81
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) DrafterSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2603
Joined: 5 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Football

Postby eaglesrule » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:07 pm

4th and 26 has EVERYTHING to do with it -- if you are lobbing statments like "mcnabb isn't a good leader"

you specualte what went on in the huddle.

But if good leadership means stepping up and delivering when the chips are down -- so be it. He did it. The facts are that the eagles snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, and did it because mcnabb through the ball.

The fact is he has carried this offense on his back for years. And EVERY year they climb back for more. How is that not leadership. Its easy to lead when things are going smoothly. Not so easy when you face adversity. And every year this team has come back for more -- and they have done it with donovan at the helm.

Now maybe you haven't watched eagles football, but christ -- this was the first year they have had anything that resembles a "potent" offense. Any offenseive strides they made were because 5 was on the field.

And considering there are 2 qb's in the league who have anything on him in terms of pedigree/winning -- farve and brady, It hink this is absurd.

some qb's win despite the team, the eagles team wins because of donovan. you can look through the rosters, or just have paid attention to last year to see that.

when you consider that the early part of his career, he was 90 percent of the offense, as he matured -- he carried a team that had some major flaws but was good Then last year, single handedly shouldered the rush nonsense/the bad start the funk the team was in and lead them to the championship game -- yes on the heels of 4-26, a play that he compelted when all the chips were down, to this year when the eagles dominated everyone but the pats -- how can you say he isn't a leader?

He never complains, the eagles keep executing the plan, he attracts free agents/trades, the team has done nothing but win under his helm.

If you consider donovan a choker perhaps you should look at the history of the oakland raiders under the deified John Madden again.

It sucks to lose late like that, but many can't even get to the playoffs twice ina row, let alone championship games.

And yes bagel -- maybe I have an agenda -- the agenda being dispelling your poor point.

Mannning did more with less. He was the most prolific qb in nfl history, and helmed the first O with 3 1k receivers. He mustered 3 whole points.

Mcnabb had some terrible Int's, but had a top 5 passing day in the super bowl, and produced 21 points -- with less tools at his disposal. I'd say that is "leadership"
Last edited by eaglesrule on Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Brian Dawkins played in second grade.
eaglesrule
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2843
Joined: 3 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby goleafsgo96 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:11 pm

maddog60 wrote:Free Bagel,

Manning did do less with more.

Take TO and any two other Eagles WRs and compare them to Harrison, Stokley, and Wayne. Take LJ Smith and Thomason and compare them to Pollard and Clark.

Manning is a great QB, but he did do less with more. Swap the WRs and Manning doesn't break records this season, while McNabb at the very least makes a serious bid for the year's MVP. Yet when it came to playing the Pats in the playoffs (which is what teams seem to have a problem with in general), Manning could not produce a single TD, whereas McNabb kept it close with a substantially worse arsenal.


This was funny. TO = better than Harrison, and its not hard to see that Manning makes wayne and stokley as good as they are. Swap the receivers, and TO gets about 1600 yds, and Pinkston and Mitchell have the best years of their lives.. by far. Mcnabb may have kept the game close with his Tds, but he also threw the game away. That is something Peyton did not do. (he had the 1 pick on the last second play when hte game was over)

You put Manning on the eagles and theyre the best team in the league. I have nothing against Mcnabb, but to say he is a better leader, or beter QB, or whatever youre getting at here, is borderline stupid. I know its an opinion, but some things are obvious.
Image
Chris Leak-QB-Florida Gators
goleafsgo96
General Manager
General Manager

Mock(ing) DrafterLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2879
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: bitter about missing the playoffs

Postby eaglesrule » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:18 pm

ok to compare reggie wayne, stokely, edgerrin james, pollard, clark with: pinkston, mitchell, lj smith, thomasan, westbrook is flat out silly.

manning had more than donovan, and did less.

The eagles went 17-2 in games they were contesting, 15-1 in the regular season.

To say that manning would have made them appreciably better is folly. Eagles were the second best team in the league this year. They swept their division, swept the conference games they contested, destroyed their two playoff opponents prior to the pats -- and played the pats tougher than the afc certainly did -- that can't even be debated.

Is manning really going to make the eagles 2 games better?

Or would mcnabb make the colts truly devasting since he can scramble, and there would be NO way to account for everything on that team.

You guys are specualting, but not using logic.
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Brian Dawkins played in second grade.
eaglesrule
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2843
Joined: 3 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby goleafsgo96 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:11 pm

dude are you saying mcnabb is a better QB than Manning? IF you are, theres no need to discuss this...
Image
Chris Leak-QB-Florida Gators
goleafsgo96
General Manager
General Manager

Mock(ing) DrafterLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 2879
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: bitter about missing the playoffs

Postby deluxe_247 » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:16 pm

there is no way that mcanbb is a better leader,or a better qb than manning. ive read through this whole thread shaking my head at the absolute homerism...i dont even want to get started. :-[
Image
deluxe_247
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertCafe RankerBig Sig ChampionMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 15165
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Giggity Giggity

PreviousNext

Return to Football Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 22:20 hours
(and 41 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact