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vick in the pro bowl

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Postby tpetty6320 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:30 pm

wow, i didnt mean base everything on the pro bowl but it was the only chance i had to watch him throw to a decent receiver. my point was that he is a better qb than people give him credit for. and fantasy wise i agree with the mediocre comment, but the two years he has started for us we went to the playoffs and won a game both times. he has the same playoff record as mcnabb after his first two years........
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Postby black_hawk8888 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:30 pm

Yeah - ol' Donny Mac was born with a sickness: its called chokitis and the usual symptoms are wilting like a dead flower in the 4th quarter and the inability to call plays in big games, as well as a propensity for throwing lots of interceptions at crucial moments. Its a clinically acknowledged disease and while not terminal, the long term effects are: a) building pressure from the media and Philly fans; b) the cold shoulder from HOF voters; c) a lack of self respect.

;-D
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Postby tpetty6320 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:33 pm

and by the way, what is your idea 'maddog' for what is mediocre. i think being 2-2 in your first two years in the playoffs, two winning seasons, and winning your division your second full year in the league is above average........
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Postby goleafsgo96 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:22 pm

tpetty6320 wrote:and by the way, what is your idea 'maddog' for what is mediocre. i think being 2-2 in your first two years in the playoffs, two winning seasons, and winning your division your second full year in the league is above average........


maddogs talking about the QB, not the team. Does a QB influence the team? yes. Is the QB the team? No.
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Postby portisfan24 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:23 pm

tpetty6320 wrote:and by the way, what is your idea 'maddog' for what is mediocre. i think being 2-2 in your first two years in the playoffs, two winning seasons, and winning your division your second full year in the league is above average........


thats what I was thinking. Vick may be a bust fantasy wise, but I dont see how he is a bust on the field. He wins games. How about the win at Lambeau? Not many "busts" would be able to do that in the playoffs.
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Postby Manja » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:51 pm

Didn't Minnesota just do it again?
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Postby tpetty6320 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:42 pm

goleafsgo96 wrote:
tpetty6320 wrote:and by the way, what is your idea 'maddog' for what is mediocre. i think being 2-2 in your first two years in the playoffs, two winning seasons, and winning your division your second full year in the league is above average........


maddogs talking about the QB, not the team. Does a QB influence the team? yes. Is the QB the team? No.


in atlanta i say more than usual. vick changes the whole attitude and tempo of the offense and defense. remember last year when he got injured? everyone played awful. i am not saying he is the best in the history of the NFL but he is definitely not mediocre. how else can you explain the win ratio while he is in versus being on the sidelines for the last 3 years????????
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Postby Ironhorse75 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:02 pm

Though to a degree it is true the defense isn't playing smeer the queer in the pro bowl, I do however think it was evident as to how much a great receiving core can open up his game. They challenged his passing game and he strung 3 back to back scoring drives.

There were a few gimmies where the receivers were wide open, but the majority of his passes were tight and on point. He had moments where he was threading the needle or arcing it perfectly, regardless of how much effort the defenders were putting on.

I don't know what I liked more, Henderson totally missing that sack, or when Vick rolled out to the right and had to torque his body as he was running because he throws on his left.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:05 pm

portisfan24 wrote:thats what I was thinking. Vick may be a bust fantasy wise, but I dont see how he is a bust on the field. He wins games. How about the win at Lambeau? Not many "busts" would be able to do that in the playoffs.


Oh Vick won that game? With his 13/25 completions, his 117 yards, 1 TD, and 64 rushing yards. 54% throwing with under 200 yards total offense and 1 TD when the team scored 27 points won them that game?

I'm pretty sure the 2 INTs and 3 fumble recoveries by the defense had a lot more to do with them winning than Vick did.

Yet another classic example of giving far too much credit to the QB because the team wins.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:17 pm

tpetty6320 wrote:
goleafsgo96 wrote:
tpetty6320 wrote:and by the way, what is your idea 'maddog' for what is mediocre. i think being 2-2 in your first two years in the playoffs, two winning seasons, and winning your division your second full year in the league is above average........


maddogs talking about the QB, not the team. Does a QB influence the team? yes. Is the QB the team? No.


in atlanta i say more than usual. vick changes the whole attitude and tempo of the offense and defense. remember last year when he got injured? everyone played awful. i am not saying he is the best in the history of the NFL but he is definitely not mediocre. how else can you explain the win ratio while he is in versus being on the sidelines for the last 3 years????????


goleafsgo was right, I was referring to Vick not just the team. As a whole team Atlanta is quite good, but many times that team had to try to win in spite of Vick's ineptitude to score points (not even a TD against a porous Arizona defense).

I'll give atlanta that Vick is their best QB available, no doubt about that, but he isn't the difference why they missed the playoffs last year and had a bye this year. The difference is in their defense. If you look at how their defense played last year compared to the year before when they made the playoffs, and even this year, you find the defense played crappy all of 2003. Then if you look at cases when the starting franchise QB gets injured for the season, you find there is no correlation between how well the defense plays and whether or not the QB is injured. (I'd provide the link to this information, but I dont feel like digging it up, so if you really want it, let me know and I'll find it).

Also, I define mediocre as such:

Daunte Culpepper MIN 110.9
Donovan McNabb PHI 104.7
Brian Griese TB 97.5
Marc Bulger STL 93.7
Brett Favre GB 92.4
Jake Delhomme CAR 87.3
Kurt Warner NYG 86.5
Matt Hasselbeck SEA 83.1
Brad Johnson TB 79.5
Aaron Brooks NO 79.5
Tim Rattay SF 78.1
Michael Vick ATL 78.1

All of these guys were starters for their team (or slated as such to begin the season in Brad Johnson's case). Out of 16 NFC teams, 10 NFC teams had a QB who played better football than Vick did. That's actually below average play on his part, and it has no place getting the honor that is supposed to go along with a Pro Bowl. Then again, the Pro Bowl is more of a popularity contest, otherwise how can you explain the exclusion of players like Donnie Edwards this year.
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