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God forbid Roy Williams tackle Terrell Owens

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Postby Kensat30 » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:29 pm

TheRawDAWG wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:A single player using this technique broke 3 players' legs this season and put another player on the IR by tearing ligaments in both of his knees. IS that enough evidence?


No, it isn't. If you've ever taken a class whether it be science, psychology, or statistics, that explains what the sample for studies and research is, you'd know that that evidence is an absolutely horrible sample size.

You have to consider every player, all year, all the horse-callers, and then you should probably do a couple seasons just to make sure this one wasn't some fluke. Then, if you can show that horse-caller tackling is a significant higher risk to players than the other legal types of tackling, you have a point. Until then, you're making very ill-informed generalizations.


Ill-formed generalizations? When one player can injure 4 freakin players in the same year usnig the same technique, there are some pretty obvious red flags... And as to my "moron" comments, those are directed to the people who are not seeing those red flags.

I can't believe some of you posters saying that the NFL shouldn't be reduced to flag football. Personally, I enjoy watching the game for the game, not to see players get devastating injuries. Cheers to your favorite player getting his career ended by Roy Williams next season because football without the "horse-collar tackle" is not man enough for you.



So you think the NFL should be reduced to flag football?

I'm totally agreeing here with the guy that said this is way too small a sample size. I'm sure Roy doesn't hurt 4 guys every year with this type of hit. I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say he's hurt more guys in his career with big time crushing tackles.

What if next year another guy (or even Roy again) hurts 4 guys with tackles around the knees? Are we going to be on here arguing about hitting below the waist? Well actually I believe the flags go in the waist band so we wont have to worry about that.


You are overlooking the fact that Roy Williams, a single player in a single season, ALREADY broke 3 legs and destroyed another guy's knees using this tackle. It's not a question of how often does this technique injure people, it's already PROVEN that the tackle breaks legs. I guess you are a fan in favor of the Denver Bronco's cut blocking techniques that the league seems to ignore year after year.

I would question whether you are really even a true fan of the game if you can advocate DANGEROUS play just because of it's entertainment value. Tackling is made to bring the player down to the turf, not to injury the guy and possibly ruin his career. I guess you are all for plays like Donovan Darius' hit on Robert Fergueson last year as well. You know that play was legal once upon a time in the NFL's distant past....

Robert Fergueson should have shook it off like a man and walked off the field, instead of putting away his flags and going to the hospital like a sissy right?
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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:04 pm

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Postby maddog60 » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:02 pm

Kensat30 wrote:You are overlooking the fact that Roy Williams, a single player in a single season, ALREADY broke 3 legs and destroyed another guy's knees using this tackle. It's not a question of how often does this technique injure people, it's already PROVEN that the tackle breaks legs.


Incorrect. I didn't mean to be offending before, however I don't think you're getting the point that was trying to be made. You're concerned about the safety of players, dont like seeing them get hurt, I get that, and I agree with that concern.

Can we agree that football by necessity is a dangerous risky game? I think we can, however if you'd dispute, please by all means do.

Now, you're upset because in a single season Roy Williams injured 4 players with the same manuever. However, that isn't enough evidence, and by no means proves anything. Your sample size only includes one season, only examines one player, heck you're not even looking at any other horse-collar tackles he made, let alone comparing his horse-collar tackles to regular tackles. These are very important considerations. If you tried to use just those 4 tackles as a scientific study, or conclusive research, proving this technique is dangerous, it would never stand up to the standards of professional research.

What I'm suggesting is that we not all go jumping to conclusions. We simply need more data to draw conclusions upon, and hopefully the NFL comittee will take that approach, and inform us so some poor poster doesnt get bored and compute it just to kill this overly long thread.
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Postby Sixxgunn » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:10 pm

maddog60 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:You are overlooking the fact that Roy Williams, a single player in a single season, ALREADY broke 3 legs and destroyed another guy's knees using this tackle. It's not a question of how often does this technique injure people, it's already PROVEN that the tackle breaks legs.


Incorrect. I didn't mean to be offending before, however I don't think you're getting the point that was trying to be made. You're concerned about the safety of players, dont like seeing them get hurt, I get that, and I agree with that concern.

Can we agree that football by necessity is a dangerous risky game? I think we can, however if you'd dispute, please by all means do.

Now, you're upset because in a single season Roy Williams injured 4 players with the same manuever. However, that isn't enough evidence, and by no means proves anything. Your sample size only includes one season, only examines one player, heck you're not even looking at any other horse-collar tackles he made, let alone comparing his horse-collar tackles to regular tackles. These are very important considerations. If you tried to use just those 4 tackles as a scientific study, or conclusive research, proving this technique is dangerous, it would never stand up to the standards of professional research.

What I'm suggesting is that we not all go jumping to conclusions. We simply need more data to draw conclusions upon, and hopefully the NFL comittee will take that approach, and inform us so some poor poster doesnt get bored and compute it just to kill this overly long thread.


Exactly.I already posted the formula,I think that for argument's sake we should just agree to disagree and let this thread slide to the dark depths of the Forum Underworld.
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Postby steelyeri » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:05 am

I don't know if this has been posted yet (too lazy to go through the whole post). But I think the thing the way that Roy Williams does that tackle should be illegal. If you look at the plays, the main thing that makes it dangerous is when Williams leaves his feet. Not only does he trap the players legs in an ackward position but he puts all of his weight on the ball-carrier's legs. Just wanted to get my two cents in.
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:10 pm

I am pretty inert either way about this kind of tackle.

It is unfortuante owens got hurt, but I won't assign malicious intent -- YET.

But don't act like football is baseball -- it ain't and tradition means nothing. If they can take actions to make a very violent game mildly safer, they can and should.

The point isn't that Williams resorts to dirty tackling, it is that he isn't that good and finds himself in bad positions all the time to do it.

It surely is a technique he relies on -- 4 injuries as a result of HIM show that he needs it.

There isn't anything inherent to me that says this should or shouldn't be allowed.

The same way I don't think Sapp should have gotten suspended for the clifton thing (he didn't). It was leagal at the time. But I have no problem making a decision that is now Illegal.

Bag,

maybe instead of complaining about the rules, the cowboys can get some players that don't get burned, leaving them in that position.

And the fact that it was owens is bullshit. Yea, the league just LOVES owens. Loves Owens to the point of protecting him against everyone.

Gimmie a break, the league clearly is neautral, but if they had their druthers, owens and moss would not be favored sons.

Your arguments are so situational. The fact is the roy williams has been at the epicenter of 4 vicious manuvers to bring down a ball carrier, and the result was 4 injuries. Roy williams or not, anything that results in that many injuries should be investigated.
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Postby Azrael » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:08 pm

God forbid this thread go on any longer.
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Postby Kensat30 » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:20 pm

Take a look at this picture of Musa Smith being tackled. Should that play be illegal or not? Could Roy have simply wrapped the waist and brought the man down? How would eliminating tackles like this change the game into flag football?

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Postby Sixxgunn » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:42 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Take a look at this picture of Musa Smith being tackled. Should that play be illegal or not? Could Roy have simply wrapped the waist and brought the man down? How would eliminating tackles like this change the game into flag football?

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The only way to solve this would be to make it illegal to tackle someone by any part of their equipment.Next year every single defense becomes Indy or KC if this happens.Will it protect some players?Yes,of course.Will it take away from the game?I believe so.I'm not arguing that it's good to hurt people,and yes,it appears RW does put a little extra on his tackles,but you can't make a rule against it because of the damage it would do overall.You will see penalties because a guy got dragged down by his shirt tail.Possibly,it might be passed to say a player may not drag a player down from the backside,but that revolves back around to when you should let a play go and the like.
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:49 pm

it isn't that hard.

just define what a "hit", "wrap" and "drag" are.

Ban drags (while including horsecollar tackles) by saying something like any closed hand around any prat of equipement consititutes a drag down -- meaning if jersey's, facemasks, hair -- whatever that is penalty.

you either have to hit someone down -- implying there isn't prolonged contact -- meaning you don't grab someone

or you have to try to wrap them.

I think this won't get passed btw..
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