Cornbread Maxwell wrote:IMO MRobinson, Burelson, Campbell, and TTaylor is a fine WR corps - probably about avg in today's NFL.
I like Marcus Robinson a lot but think it is risky to depend on him to be a productive starter. He had back problems in Chicago which is an injury that tends to come back to haunt you. He has never started more than 11 games in a season, so there have to be some questions about his durability. I wish the guy well (he was awesome back in 1999) but there's a good chance you'll be looking at Burleson plus Campbell/Taylor as your starters for part of the season.
treat24 wrote:also i love that the chart is not from any NFL team... it's made up... i'll make a chart that say those two picks are better than the #2 overall... plus it shows no account for the talent of the draft class... some years are better than others... stupid charts that mean nothing...
This chart is not made up, it is actually used. It's not just some idiot trying to get his jollies. BTW, its a pretty commonly known fact that this is a weak draft class in comparison w/ others.
I ain't no suit-wearin' businessman like you... you know I'm just a gangsta I suppose... - Avon Barksdale
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:If anyone can corroborate the rumor that MIN wants to/ is in discussions with/ is thinking about/ is dreaming about/ is preparing to / or anything at all that has to do with trading with MIA, please post it.
it has been on 2 different radio stations and in one newspaper in the twin cities here... but i don't have a link or anything...
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Cornbread Maxwell wrote: If anyone can corroborate the rumor that MIN wants to/ is in discussions with/ is thinking about/ is dreaming about/ is preparing to / or anything at all that has to do with trading with MIA, please post it.
Same link I just posted only this time it's the full version of the article.
Vikings flirt with a trade
Minnesota, interested in moving up in the draft, has contacted the Dolphins about a possible trade for the team's No. 2 overall pick.
The Dolphins have been contacted by Minnesota about a possible trade as the Vikings try to find a trading partner to move up from the No. 7 overall pick in the NFL draft to get Michigan receiver Braylon Edwards.
A Vikings source confirmed that the team has talked to San Francisco and Miami about a possible move. In addition, another source said Minnesota also is talking with Cleveland about the No. 3 pick.
The Vikings have the No. 7 and No. 18 picks, and will be looking for the cheapest trade among the top picks.
The Vikings are at least the second team to express interest in the Dolphins' No. 2 overall pick in the draft, which begins Saturday. Last week, Tampa Bay expressed interest in the No. 2 in hopes of getting quarterback Alex Smith with that pick. All of the talks are considered preliminary at this point because no one is quite sure whom San Francisco will select with the No. 1 overall pick. The 49ers have opened contract talks with Edwards, Smith and the agent for Cal quarterback Aaron Rodgers.
The 49ers also have talked about trading with several teams. If the 49ers stay, the Vikings expect them to select one of the quarterbacks. As of Monday, the 49ers appeared to be leaning toward Smith, although the contract talks are not expected to go smoothly. That might lead the 49ers to select Rodgers.
As for the Dolphins, having multiple suitors for the second pick overall can only help them. According to six NFL executives, the Dolphins have expressed a strong desire to trade the pick.
''I know they're motivated,'' one of the sources said Monday.
If the Dolphins don't trade, they have expressed interest in Smith, Rodgers and Edwards, watching all three work out at their colleges. In addition, the Dolphins had Smith in for a two-day interview last week.
The Dolphins are hoping the increased interest in the No. 2 pick could prompt a team to offer what is considered a traditional trade for the selection.
According to the Draft Value Chart used by many NFL teams in determing trades, the Dolphins' No. 2 overall pick is worth 2,600 points. The No. 7 overall pick is worth 1,500 points, and the No. 18 is worth 950 points. That's a total of 2,450 points.
By contrast, Tampa Bay has the No. 5 overall pick. According to the value chart, the price for the Buccaneers to move from No. 5 to No. 2 would be a second- and third-round pick.
The value chart was popularized by former Dolphins coach Jimmy Johnson when he worked in Dallas and made numerous trades. The chart is considered a guideline, not an absolute rule. But Dolphins coach Nick Saban said two weeks ago he plans to follow the assigned values in making trades.
The critical question for the Dolphins is whether Smith, whom Saban has privately indicated he will select if Miami stays at No. 2, goes at No. 1 overall.
The question is whether Smith will go at No. 1. In the ever-changing pecking order of the top selections this year, word around the NFL was that the 49ers were more interested in Smith than Rodgers.
The problem is that the 49ers probably won't be able to get a deal done with Smith because agent Tom Condon will not agree to a bargain deal over what No. 1 pick Eli Manning received last season from the New York Giants.
Condon also represents Manning and has made it clear to San Francisco he won't take a discount just to be the No. 1 pick. Condon is considered a hard-line negotiator who has a history of holding out clients, such as LaDainian Tomlinson with San Diego in 2001.
The fact the Vikings are talking about moving up is a drastic change in stance. In February, after trading receiver Randy Moss, the Vikings said they had no interest in moving up to one of the top spots in the draft -- mainly because the contract for a top pick is considered cumbersome.
Herald sports writer Armando Salguero contributed to this report.
I have a strong suspicion this was written in a Miami paper to stir up rumors. MIA is desperate to trade down - as is SF and CLE, so it really doesnt suprise me to see the local papers repeating stories like this and claiming unnamed sources. It is my understanding that no MIN official has corroborated this, in fact they are denying the reports as nothing more than rumors.
I find this really interesting - MIA is all abuzz about this, and no one in MIN thinks its a good idea. Scouts.com has said it was originally an April Fools joke - literally.
I guess, if you think its a possibility that MIN may give up its 2 first rd picks to move up 5 spots, then there really isnt anything I can say to change your mind that I havent already said.
Personally, I am not buying into this nonsense whatsoever, but it is interesting in the context of the draft chart that Plindsey posted. Ive read NFL management who think its hogwash and others who swear by it. Personally, I think its hogwash and value is related to the depth of talent that changes from yr to yr.
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:No I disagree about CPepp - I guess a few preseason games doesnt mean really much of anything to me. He has been one of the most innaccurate passers in the NFL, but again, that stat was greatly inflated by Moss, so its a mute argument - stats wont answer the question. This is not an indication of whether or not Cpepp is a good QB - many good QBs are innacurate, but other tangible and intangible factors make up for the deficiency.
Culpepper has a good o-line that gives him all day to make reads. Culpepper has the ability to buy time with his legs to make reads. Any NFL QB with a good amount of time can make throws.
Watch Culpepper make reads before the ball is even snapped and then factor in all the time he has to throw the ball. He's a very solid QB who can succeed in this league with or without Moss. Obviously he's probably not going to be the undisputed #1 fantasy QB without the best WR in the game, but that doesn't mean he won't succeed.
Again, I like MRob - and think he is underrated - same for TTaylor. Why is Campbell going to jail - what did I miss - or is that just some kind of speculation?
Marcus Robinson is a talented WR, but he's on the field at 100% for like 5 or 6 games a season. You can't count on this guy to be an every week starter or you'll end up with your 3rd WR starting every week. Last season they had Burleson to fall back on and then Wiggins stepped up to the plate when MRob once again was unable to perform up to his ability.
Kelly Campbell was arrested on drug charges and some other charges as well. Could end up in jail and will definitely be receiving at least some sort of suspension in the near future. No link, but it's out there.
If the Vikings feel they need a WR so bad, they have a number of options - MWilliams may be there at the 7spot, but if he isnt, chances are DJohnson - who fills a bigger need than WR will be. Also, WR is deep after the top tier, so waiting until the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th rd isnt that bad of an idea for teams looking to fill that position.
I think the Vikings need another talented guy at WR who can step in and start in 2005. Sure they can make it with a Burleson, Taylor, Robinson combo until Taylor shows that he really can't play and Marcus tweaks a hammy, and then they're left with who? It would be a blessing if Mike Williams falls to #7, but do you count on that and risk your season when your WRs fail and you have to fall back on a 3rd round WR?
Kensat30 wrote:Did you see the development Culpepper showed in the preseason last year? Culpepper looked like he was evolving into a Manning type player at the LOS without Moss in the lineup.
C-Pepp with Moss:
Week 1: 17/23, 242 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT Week 2: 37/47, 343 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT Week 3: 19/30, 360 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT Week 5: 36/50, 396 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT Week 6: 26/37, 425 yds., 5 TD, 2 INT Week 12: 19/27, 235 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT Week 13: 23/33, 279 yds., 2 TD, 3 INT Week 14: 21/33, 270 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT Week 15: 25/35, 404 yds., 3 TD, 1 INT Week 16: 16/23, 285 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT Week 17: 27, 44, 299 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT Wildcard: 19/29, 284 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT Division: 24/46, 316 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT
C-Pepp w/o Moss:
Week 7: 24/30, 183 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT Week 8: 24/41, 231 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT Week 9: 16/19, 169 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT Week 10: 27/44, 363 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT Week 11: 22/32, 233 yds., 2 TD, 1 INT
Wow you just showed that Culpepper is still capable of putting up 363 yards and 4 TDs without Moss. Take those 5 games and prorate them out into a full season, and you get over 3750+ yards and 28+ TDs, couple that with his rushing stats and Culpepper is still a top3 QB.
This shows clear as day that C-Pepp looks nothing like Manning without Moss. Only 1 game with 300+ yards and one game with 3+ TDs (same game) when he 6 games with 300+ yards and 6 games with 3+ TDs when Moss was there.
My reference to Manning had nothing to do with stats. It was in the adjustments he was able to make at the line of scrimmage to exploit weaknesses in the defense. Obviously Manning is the most talented QB in the NFL at adjusting the playcalling based on defenses and that's why I chose to use him as a comparison/measuring stick for Culpepper. He's become a leader on the field instead of just the guy who throws the ball to his WRs.
This is not meant to bash C-Pepp, but rather to shine some light on the fact that having the best WR in the game greatly inflates your stats. McNabb wouldn't do as well without TO. Manning wouldn't do as well without Harrison. It is fact.
Exactly. So instead of posting stats that rival the greatest single season performances in history, Culpepper will simply be among the yearly performance leaderboard.
I agree with Minny getting rid of one of the biggest headcases in the NFL and concentrating on improving their defense. They should continue that trend.
The only defense added thus far from the Moss trade was LB Napoleon Harris. Maybe Moss wouldn't have been such a headcase if the Vikes showed a commitment to winning instead of asking him to carry the franchise on his shoulders. It was just this past year that they signed a top free agent LB, CB, safety, etc. etc. in the offseason, and they didn't need to get rid of Moss to do that.
The Vikings were playing the Packers in week 10, who probably had one of the worst seondaries in NFL history last year. I watched a lot of that game and the Pack missed at least one tackle on almost every play. Over the course of a game, that extra yardage greatly increases yards, touchdowns, and points. In the other games without Moss where CPepp had to throw into NFL secondaries he was very average, and I'm being generous. However, I do think that Culpepper will easily "remain" the top QB in the NFL as long as the Vikings play the Packers 11 times next year.