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vikings RUMORED to trade #7 AND #18

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Postby treat24 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:08 am

The Dolphins will reportedly want more than Minnesota's two first round picks to move down to the #7 spot.

The Vikings reportedly want to draft Braylon Edwards. While consistent with trades in the past, we bet this is just posturing. Miami would love to pick up an extra first rounder, while not having to pay the signing bonus involved with the #2 pick.
Source: South Florida Sun-Sentinel

yeah, right, i don't care waht the chart says... miami will not be getting anything more... unless the vikes are idiots... wait a sec....

herschel walker trade... moss trade... ok maybe the vikes will give up culpepper along with those two picks... the vikes don't know sh$t about trading...
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Postby drsteuss » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:11 am

Time to put this worthless rumor to rest.

Vikings set to move up, or down

BY DON SEEHOLZER

Pioneer Press




The Vikings have talked to some teams at the top of this weekend's NFL draft, but that doesn't mean they're looking to trade up from the No. 7 spot.


In fact, according to team vice president of football operations Rob Brzezinski, they could just as easily end up moving in the opposite direction.


"I don't want to name teams," Brzezinski said Tuesday. "I will confirm we have talked to teams ahead of us and behind us. We're looking for value. We want to know what it would cost us to move up. It's also possible we could move back for the right value."


Minnesota, which owns the seventh and 18th selections of the first round, reportedly has talked to San Francisco, Miami and Cleveland — which are scheduled to pick first through third, respectively — about a possible trade.


The Vikings' No. 1 need is at wide receiver, and a top-three pick likely would ensure them a shot at this year's top prospect, Michigan's Braylon Edwards, or Southern California's Mike Williams.


Anything is possible, according to Brzezinski, but he said the chances of a trade down are just as likely. That won't create the same buzz as the trade-up rumors, but Brzezinski said the Vikings will continue to talk trade with teams above and below them and that he expects those discussions to continue through Saturday.


"It's likely we'll pick at seven," he said. "All we're doing is exploring our options. We're wide open."
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Postby kevinoc81 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:18 am

Kensat30 wrote:
kevinoc81 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Did you see the development Culpepper showed in the preseason last year? Culpepper looked like he was evolving into a Manning type player at the LOS without Moss in the lineup.


C-Pepp with Moss:

Week 1: 17/23, 242 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 2: 37/47, 343 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 3: 19/30, 360 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Week 5: 36/50, 396 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 6: 26/37, 425 yds., 5 TD, 2 INT
Week 12: 19/27, 235 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 13: 23/33, 279 yds., 2 TD, 3 INT
Week 14: 21/33, 270 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 15: 25/35, 404 yds., 3 TD, 1 INT
Week 16: 16/23, 285 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT
Week 17: 27, 44, 299 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Wildcard: 19/29, 284 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Division: 24/46, 316 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT

C-Pepp w/o Moss:

Week 7: 24/30, 183 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 8: 24/41, 231 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT
Week 9: 16/19, 169 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 10: 27/44, 363 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Week 11: 22/32, 233 yds., 2 TD, 1 INT


Wow you just showed that Culpepper is still capable of putting up 363 yards and 4 TDs without Moss. Take those 5 games and prorate them out into a full season, and you get over 3750+ yards and 28+ TDs, couple that with his rushing stats and Culpepper is still a top3 QB.


Way to pick the only outlier game in that bunch as an example of his overall performance without Moss. Here's some more stats:

Week 2: Aaron Brooks, 25/34, 279 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. SF
Week 5: David Carr, 27/42, 372 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. Minn
Week 15: Kerry Collins, 21/37, 371 yds., 5 TD, 1 INT vs. Tenn

Every QB has a good day, especially against weak defenses. If you don't see a glaring difference in the games with Moss and the games without him I don't know what to say.

Kensat30 wrote:
This shows clear as day that C-Pepp looks nothing like Manning without Moss. Only 1 game with 300+ yards and one game with 3+ TDs (same game) when he 6 games with 300+ yards and 6 games with 3+ TDs when Moss was there.


My reference to Manning had nothing to do with stats. It was in the adjustments he was able to make at the line of scrimmage to exploit weaknesses in the defense. Obviously Manning is the most talented QB in the NFL at adjusting the playcalling based on defenses and that's why I chose to use him as a comparison/measuring stick for Culpepper. He's become a leader on the field instead of just the guy who throws the ball to his WRs.


I have no reference really to base this on so I will just bow out of this part. I only watch two Minnesota games a year (vs. Bears) and maybe a Monday night game so I don't know if he calls his own plays and audibles to pick on the weak part of the defense when he sees it. If he does then that's great, but I don't see him do it much vs. Chicago.

Kensat30 wrote:
This is not meant to bash C-Pepp, but rather to shine some light on the fact that having the best WR in the game greatly inflates your stats. McNabb wouldn't do as well without TO. Manning wouldn't do as well without Harrison. It is fact.


Exactly. So instead of posting stats that rival the greatest single season performances in history, Culpepper will simply be among the yearly performance leaderboard.


Exactly. I never said C-Pepp wasn't a good QB. I said he wasn't the same QB without Moss.

Kensat30 wrote:
I agree with Minny getting rid of one of the biggest headcases in the NFL

and

concentrating on improving their defense. They should continue that trend.


The only defense added thus far from the Moss trade was LB Napoleon Harris. Maybe Moss wouldn't have been such a headcase if the Vikes showed a commitment to winning instead of asking him to carry the franchise on his shoulders. It was just this past year that they signed a top free agent LB, CB, safety, etc. etc. in the offseason, and they didn't need to get rid of Moss to do that.


I split up my quote to make it easier to read. Where in there did I say they did or needed to get rid of Moss to help their defense. I said they got rid of one of the biggest headcases in NFL history and improved their defense. They should continue that way (improve defense) by adding DJ at #7 and then add one of the second tier WRs at #18 (my opinion).

I don't care if you are expected to carry three franchises on your shoulders, there is no excuse for running over traffic cops and walking off the field early. Don't make excuses for Moss please!
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Postby Kensat30 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:05 am

kevinoc81 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
kevinoc81 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Did you see the development Culpepper showed in the preseason last year? Culpepper looked like he was evolving into a Manning type player at the LOS without Moss in the lineup.


C-Pepp with Moss:

Week 1: 17/23, 242 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 2: 37/47, 343 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 3: 19/30, 360 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Week 5: 36/50, 396 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 6: 26/37, 425 yds., 5 TD, 2 INT
Week 12: 19/27, 235 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 13: 23/33, 279 yds., 2 TD, 3 INT
Week 14: 21/33, 270 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 15: 25/35, 404 yds., 3 TD, 1 INT
Week 16: 16/23, 285 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT
Week 17: 27, 44, 299 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Wildcard: 19/29, 284 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Division: 24/46, 316 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT

C-Pepp w/o Moss:

Week 7: 24/30, 183 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 8: 24/41, 231 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT
Week 9: 16/19, 169 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 10: 27/44, 363 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Week 11: 22/32, 233 yds., 2 TD, 1 INT


Wow you just showed that Culpepper is still capable of putting up 363 yards and 4 TDs without Moss. Take those 5 games and prorate them out into a full season, and you get over 3750+ yards and 28+ TDs, couple that with his rushing stats and Culpepper is still a top3 QB.


Way to pick the only outlier game in that bunch as an example of his overall performance without Moss. Here's some more stats:

Week 2: Aaron Brooks, 25/34, 279 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. SF
Week 5: David Carr, 27/42, 372 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. Minn
Week 15: Kerry Collins, 21/37, 371 yds., 5 TD, 1 INT vs. Tenn

Every QB has a good day, especially against weak defenses. If you don't see a glaring difference in the games with Moss and the games without him I don't know what to say.




If you can choose a 5 game sample and define a player's talents and future career, then I can choose a 1 game sample and show you otherwise.

How much of a factor was Moss in weeks 12-16 anyways? I seem to recall he was playing on one leg.... Use the numbers from those week as well and you can prorate Culpepper to an even higher 4300/30 season based on an 11 game sample...

Kensat30 wrote:
This shows clear as day that C-Pepp looks nothing like Manning without Moss. Only 1 game with 300+ yards and one game with 3+ TDs (same game) when he 6 games with 300+ yards and 6 games with 3+ TDs when Moss was there.


My reference to Manning had nothing to do with stats. It was in the adjustments he was able to make at the line of scrimmage to exploit weaknesses in the defense. Obviously Manning is the most talented QB in the NFL at adjusting the playcalling based on defenses and that's why I chose to use him as a comparison/measuring stick for Culpepper. He's become a leader on the field instead of just the guy who throws the ball to his WRs.


I have no reference really to base this on so I will just bow out of this part. I only watch two Minnesota games a year (vs. Bears) and maybe a Monday night game so I don't know if he calls his own plays and audibles to pick on the weak part of the defense when he sees it. If he does then that's great, but I don't see him do it much vs. Chicago.



That's why you fall back on the numbers in this argument. I was talking about the development of Culpepper as a QB, not how many yards and touchdowns he threw with or without Moss. Sure Moss is going to get a lot of yardage and touchdowns from his blazing speed and jumping ability, but does that mean Culpepper can't put the ball in place for another less talented WR to make a play?

Week 12 @ Chicago, Culpepper probably had his worst game of the season. He was consistently driving the length of the field under heavy pressure and Moss was basically non-existant (4 catches/30 yards). Without a couple costly turnovers in the redzone early in the game, that game probably is an easy Minnesota victory.

Yet, despite making a couple early mistakes, Culpepper went on to throw for a 70% completion percentage with an 8.5 ypa, ending up with 280 yards passing 2 TDs and 3 INTs + 50 yards rushing. His worst game of the season by far..... and still netted himself 21 fantasy points. Moss? Accounted for 1 point.


Kensat30 wrote:
I agree with Minny getting rid of one of the biggest headcases in the NFL

and

concentrating on improving their defense. They should continue that trend.


The only defense added thus far from the Moss trade was LB Napoleon Harris. Maybe Moss wouldn't have been such a headcase if the Vikes showed a commitment to winning instead of asking him to carry the franchise on his shoulders. It was just this past year that they signed a top free agent LB, CB, safety, etc. etc. in the offseason, and they didn't need to get rid of Moss to do that.


I split up my quote to make it easier to read. Where in there did I say they did or needed to get rid of Moss to help their defense. I said they got rid of one of the biggest headcases in NFL history and improved their defense. They should continue that way (improve defense) by adding DJ at #7 and then add one of the second tier WRs at #18 (my opinion).

I don't care if you are expected to carry three franchises on your shoulders, there is no excuse for running over traffic cops and walking off the field early. Don't make excuses for Moss please!


Getting rid of Moss and improving their defense are mutually exclusive. Don't you realize that Minnesota could have been improving their defense every year that Moss was there and then MAYBE he wouldn't have acted out the way he did? It's gotta be frustrating to consistently be on the most potent offense in the NFL and be possibly the greatest WR of all time while your defense consistently sucks and your management does nothing to improve....

Learn to seperate the game from real life and realize that pro-athletes aren't role models. Then you will see that Moss is a guy you want to have on your team no matter what, just like TO. You don't win games by being a model citizen.

Explain to me how the Vikings are better on the field without Moss in the lineup? Explain to me why the Vikings needed to trade Moss to improve their defense? I don't think you can.

Let me quote Johnny Cochran in analyzing the Moss trade catch phrase "Addition by subtraction"..... THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!
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Postby maddog60 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:37 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:A) Culpepper is not a good throwing QB - his stats were inflated because he had one of the best WRs in the history of the NFL to throw to. He should be exposed this yr, however most people will more than likely blame the WR corps. IMO MRobinson, Burelson, Campbell, and TTaylor is a fine WR corps - probably about avg in today's NFL. The hype to replace Moss is driving this team in the wrong direction.


I agree with most of your point (the last line sums up my feelings on the Vikings draft entirely). I think taking DJ at #7 would be the best move the Vikings can make. And yes, an elite WR does boost a QBs stats, but elite QBs are still elite QBs, and all of them are good passers. Look at Culpepper's statistics. He isn't throwing everything to Moss, and you can't go over 95 QB rating 3 out of 5 seasons if you're not a good passing QB.

The true test will be this season, for alot of things. This season we'll see what C-pepp does without an elite. Just like last year people were saying "No more excuses for McNabb because he finally had an elite WR", this year C-pepp can undoubtedly prove he's one of the best in the league.
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Postby kevinoc81 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:52 am

Kensat30 wrote:
kevinoc81 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
kevinoc81 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Did you see the development Culpepper showed in the preseason last year? Culpepper looked like he was evolving into a Manning type player at the LOS without Moss in the lineup.


C-Pepp with Moss:

Week 1: 17/23, 242 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 2: 37/47, 343 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 3: 19/30, 360 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Week 5: 36/50, 396 yds., 5 TD, 0 INT
Week 6: 26/37, 425 yds., 5 TD, 2 INT
Week 12: 19/27, 235 yds., 1 TD, 1 INT
Week 13: 23/33, 279 yds., 2 TD, 3 INT
Week 14: 21/33, 270 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 15: 25/35, 404 yds., 3 TD, 1 INT
Week 16: 16/23, 285 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT
Week 17: 27, 44, 299 yds., 2 TD, 0 INT
Wildcard: 19/29, 284 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Division: 24/46, 316 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT

C-Pepp w/o Moss:

Week 7: 24/30, 183 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 8: 24/41, 231 yds., 1 TD, 2 INT
Week 9: 16/19, 169 yds., 1 TD, 0 INT
Week 10: 27/44, 363 yds., 4 TD, 0 INT
Week 11: 22/32, 233 yds., 2 TD, 1 INT


Wow you just showed that Culpepper is still capable of putting up 363 yards and 4 TDs without Moss. Take those 5 games and prorate them out into a full season, and you get over 3750+ yards and 28+ TDs, couple that with his rushing stats and Culpepper is still a top3 QB.


Way to pick the only outlier game in that bunch as an example of his overall performance without Moss. Here's some more stats:

Week 2: Aaron Brooks, 25/34, 279 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. SF
Week 5: David Carr, 27/42, 372 yds., 3 TD, 0 INT vs. Minn
Week 15: Kerry Collins, 21/37, 371 yds., 5 TD, 1 INT vs. Tenn

Every QB has a good day, especially against weak defenses. If you don't see a glaring difference in the games with Moss and the games without him I don't know what to say.




If you can choose a 5 game sample and define a player's talents and future career, then I can choose a 1 game sample and show you otherwise.


I wasn't using a 5 game sample to define his talents and career. I used a five game sample to show what he did without Moss.

Kensat30 wrote:How much of a factor was Moss in weeks 12-16 anyways? I seem to recall he was playing on one leg.... Use the numbers from those week as well and you can prorate Culpepper to an even higher 4300/30 season based on an 11 game sample...


Week 12: 4 rec., 40 yds., 1 TD
Week 13: 4 rec., 31 yds.
Week 14: 4 rec., 104 yds., 1 TD
Week 15: 4 rec., 102 yds., 1 TD
Week 16: 2 rec., 30 yds., 1 TD

Four TDs in five weeks is hardly a non-factor. Not to mention the fact that Randy Moss lining up changes whole defensive plans.

Again though, you can't prorate. I'm not speculating what C-Pepp will do without Moss. I am simply showing everyone who says C-Pepp puts up the same numbers with or without Moss that they are wrong.

Kensat30 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
This shows clear as day that C-Pepp looks nothing like Manning without Moss. Only 1 game with 300+ yards and one game with 3+ TDs (same game) when he 6 games with 300+ yards and 6 games with 3+ TDs when Moss was there.


My reference to Manning had nothing to do with stats. It was in the adjustments he was able to make at the line of scrimmage to exploit weaknesses in the defense. Obviously Manning is the most talented QB in the NFL at adjusting the playcalling based on defenses and that's why I chose to use him as a comparison/measuring stick for Culpepper. He's become a leader on the field instead of just the guy who throws the ball to his WRs.


I have no reference really to base this on so I will just bow out of this part. I only watch two Minnesota games a year (vs. Bears) and maybe a Monday night game so I don't know if he calls his own plays and audibles to pick on the weak part of the defense when he sees it. If he does then that's great, but I don't see him do it much vs. Chicago.



That's why you fall back on the numbers in this argument. I was talking about the development of Culpepper as a QB, not how many yards and touchdowns he threw with or without Moss. Sure Moss is going to get a lot of yardage and touchdowns from his blazing speed and jumping ability, but does that mean Culpepper can't put the ball in place for another less talented WR to make a play?

Week 12 @ Chicago, Culpepper probably had his worst game of the season. He was consistently driving the length of the field under heavy pressure and Moss was basically non-existant (4 catches/30 yards). Without a couple costly turnovers in the redzone early in the game, that game probably is an easy Minnesota victory.

Yet, despite making a couple early mistakes, Culpepper went on to throw for a 70% completion percentage with an 8.5 ypa, ending up with 280 yards passing 2 TDs and 3 INTs + 50 yards rushing. His worst game of the season by far..... and still netted himself 21 fantasy points. Moss? Accounted for 1 point.


I was talking about him as an NFL QB, not a fantasy guy. I know he puts up good fantasy numbers, but in the NFL those three interceptions are worth more than (-2) pts. and probably had a lot to do with why the Vikings lost.


Kensat30 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
I agree with Minny getting rid of one of the biggest headcases in the NFL

and

concentrating on improving their defense. They should continue that trend.


The only defense added thus far from the Moss trade was LB Napoleon Harris. Maybe Moss wouldn't have been such a headcase if the Vikes showed a commitment to winning instead of asking him to carry the franchise on his shoulders. It was just this past year that they signed a top free agent LB, CB, safety, etc. etc. in the offseason, and they didn't need to get rid of Moss to do that.


I split up my quote to make it easier to read. Where in there did I say they did or needed to get rid of Moss to help their defense. I said they got rid of one of the biggest headcases in NFL history and improved their defense. They should continue that way (improve defense) by adding DJ at #7 and then add one of the second tier WRs at #18 (my opinion).

I don't care if you are expected to carry three franchises on your shoulders, there is no excuse for running over traffic cops and walking off the field early. Don't make excuses for Moss please!


Getting rid of Moss and improving their defense are mutually exclusive. Don't you realize that Minnesota could have been improving their defense every year that Moss was there and then MAYBE he wouldn't have acted out the way he did? It's gotta be frustrating to consistently be on the most potent offense in the NFL and be possibly the greatest WR of all time while your defense consistently sucks and your management does nothing to improve....

Learn to seperate the game from real life and realize that pro-athletes aren't role models. Then you will see that Moss is a guy you want to have on your team no matter what, just like TO. You don't win games by being a model citizen.

Explain to me how the Vikings are better on the field without Moss in the lineup? Explain to me why the Vikings needed to trade Moss to improve their defense? I don't think you can.

Let me quote Johnny Cochran in analyzing the Moss trade catch phrase "Addition by subtraction"..... THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!


Once again! I DID NOT SAY THAT THE VIKINGS HAD TO TRADE MOSS TO IMPROVE THEIR DEFENSE. I know they are mutually exclusive. I was simply saying they were both good moves. (getting rid of Moss) and (improving the defense).

You don't win games by being a model citizen. That I know, but you also don't need a horse's ass who leaves games early and yells at his QB to win games either. In the past two years how many Patriots walked off the field early or had a screaming match with Brady on the sidelines? Teams win Super Bowls, not players.

Yes. I can only imagine how tough it is to consistently have one of the best offenses in the league and have a horrible defense that keeps you from winning. I amagine that is why Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Holt, Bruce, Morton, Kennison, etc. all act the exact same way Moss does?

When one or two players maybe (including Moss) in the entire NFL act the way he does it shouldn't be blamed on the team or management or anything else. It should be blamed on the player!
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Postby Kensat30 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:01 pm

kensat30 wrote:
kensat30 wrote:My reference to Manning had nothing to do with stats. It was in the adjustments he was able to make at the line of scrimmage to exploit weaknesses in the defense. Obviously Manning is the most talented QB in the NFL at adjusting the playcalling based on defenses and that's why I chose to use him as a comparison/measuring stick for Culpepper. He's become a leader on the field instead of just the guy who throws the ball to his WRs.


I have no reference really to base this on so I will just bow out of this part. I only watch two Minnesota games a year (vs. Bears) and maybe a Monday night game so I don't know if he calls his own plays and audibles to pick on the weak part of the defense when he sees it. If he does then that's great, but I don't see him do it much vs. Chicago.



That's why you fall back on the numbers in this argument. I was talking about the development of Culpepper as a QB, not how many yards and touchdowns he threw with or without Moss. Sure Moss is going to get a lot of yardage and touchdowns from his blazing speed and jumping ability, but does that mean Culpepper can't put the ball in place for another less talented WR to make a play?

Week 12 @ Chicago, Culpepper probably had his worst game of the season. He was consistently driving the length of the field under heavy pressure and Moss was basically non-existant (4 catches/30 yards). Without a couple costly turnovers in the redzone early in the game, that game probably is an easy Minnesota victory.

Yet, despite making a couple early mistakes, Culpepper went on to throw for a 70% completion percentage with an 8.5 ypa, ending up with 280 yards passing 2 TDs and 3 INTs + 50 yards rushing. His worst game of the season by far..... and still netted himself 21 fantasy points. Moss? Accounted for 1 point.


I was talking about him as an NFL QB, not a fantasy guy. I know he puts up good fantasy numbers, but in the NFL those three interceptions are worth more than (-2) pts. and probably had a lot to do with why the Vikings lost.


I just put up the game statistics of his worst game of the season as evidence that stats aren't everything. I keep trying to say that Culpepper is a good(not solid or above average, GOOD) QB that can make plays with his legs and his arm and move the ball down the field without Moss. Yet the basis of your argument is "look at the stats in the games without Moss"! Week 12 Moss was non-existant, worst game of the season for Culpepper, yet he still produced at a high level.

Culpepper had a really bad game throwing 3 ints at the worst possible times, but he still had the poise to post amazing stats lines with 70% completion and 8.5ypa. His 50 yards rushing is something very few QBs in the league can do and shows another facet of how successful Daunte can be without Moss. He made mistakes early in that game that would have put many other QBs on the tail end of a blowout, but Culpepper kept moving the ball down the field.

Even at his worst, Culpepper is still going to keep Minnesota in games and his fantasy output reflects that.



Kensat30 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
I agree with Minny getting rid of one of the biggest headcases in the NFL

and

concentrating on improving their defense. They should continue that trend.


The only defense added thus far from the Moss trade was LB Napoleon Harris. Maybe Moss wouldn't have been such a headcase if the Vikes showed a commitment to winning instead of asking him to carry the franchise on his shoulders. It was just this past year that they signed a top free agent LB, CB, safety, etc. etc. in the offseason, and they didn't need to get rid of Moss to do that.


I split up my quote to make it easier to read. Where in there did I say they did or needed to get rid of Moss to help their defense. I said they got rid of one of the biggest headcases in NFL history and improved their defense. They should continue that way (improve defense) by adding DJ at #7 and then add one of the second tier WRs at #18 (my opinion).

I don't care if you are expected to carry three franchises on your shoulders, there is no excuse for running over traffic cops and walking off the field early. Don't make excuses for Moss please!


Getting rid of Moss and improving their defense are mutually exclusive. Don't you realize that Minnesota could have been improving their defense every year that Moss was there and then MAYBE he wouldn't have acted out the way he did? It's gotta be frustrating to consistently be on the most potent offense in the NFL and be possibly the greatest WR of all time while your defense consistently sucks and your management does nothing to improve....

Learn to seperate the game from real life and realize that pro-athletes aren't role models. Then you will see that Moss is a guy you want to have on your team no matter what, just like TO. You don't win games by being a model citizen.

Explain to me how the Vikings are better on the field without Moss in the lineup? Explain to me why the Vikings needed to trade Moss to improve their defense? I don't think you can.

Let me quote Johnny Cochran in analyzing the Moss trade catch phrase "Addition by subtraction"..... THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!


Once again! I DID NOT SAY THAT THE VIKINGS HAD TO TRADE MOSS TO IMPROVE THEIR DEFENSE. I know they are mutually exclusive. I was simply saying they were both good moves. (getting rid of Moss) and (improving the defense).

You don't win games by being a model citizen. That I know, but you also don't need a horse's ass who leaves games early and yells at his QB to win games either. In the past two years how many Patriots walked off the field early or had a screaming match with Brady on the sidelines? Teams win Super Bowls, not players.


I think you're referring to Terrell Owens here. And I'm guessing that is another player you don't want on your team also? BTW, not everyone can have the Patriot's elite defense and a blue-chip QB at the price of a backup. It's hard being disgruntled when you're winning...

Yes. I can only imagine how tough it is to consistently have one of the best offenses in the league and have a horrible defense that keeps you from winning. I amagine that is why Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Holt, Bruce, Morton, Kennison, etc. all act the exact same way Moss does?

Harrison chokes kids. Holt and Bruce have won a Super Bowl. Morton and Kennison simply suck. Harrison is the only guy even remotely similar to Moss, and he is not a model citizen either.


When one or two players maybe (including Moss) in the entire NFL act the way he does it shouldn't be blamed on the team or management or anything else. It should be blamed on the player!


Tell that to Corey Dillon.
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Postby kevinoc81 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:44 pm

First of all, I am going to end the C-Pepp thing because I don't think we are even debating the same point. You are trying to prove that he can be a good QB without Moss. I don't argue that. I was simply saying he is not the same QB without Moss. Like you said in your last post, instead of maybe having a record-breaking season for a QB, he will be a solid top 5 QB.

I never said I wouldn't want TO or Moss on my team. I never said I expect every player on the field to be a role model for all kids to come. There is a difference between being a model citizen or a role model and just being an ass. Football is their job. Ticked off or not you don't just get up and leave. That is not acceptable. I'm not saying Moss has to be all smiles, but it is wrong to everyone else on that field to just leave.

The Patriots have something going for them that no other team in the league seems to have and it's not their QB or defense. Maybe it's the coaching. We should know this year if thats it, but the fact that they are a "team" is part of what makes them so good. That's all I was saying. This isn't MLB so you can't just buy the best player at every position. You need some sort of "team" attitude to win and I feel Moss destroys that.

Harrison has been accused of choking a kid. Moss really ran over a traffic cop.

If Bruce and Holt didn't have rings you think they would just walk off the field because they were so frustrated?

Because Morton and Kennison suck, they don't get mad that their offense puts up 40+ points in a game and they still lose?

I'm just going to end this. I think we've highjacked this thread enough since it was supposed to be about Minnesota's draft picks. I just wanted to get the whole C-Pepp thing out that I really don't think we're in disagreement there. I think we disagree on Moss, but not that much, just on some minor issues. I'll let you get the last word and then end it.
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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:21 pm

kevinoc81 wrote:First of all, I am going to end the C-Pepp thing because I don't think we are even debating the same point. You are trying to prove that he can be a good QB without Moss. I don't argue that. I was simply saying he is not the same QB without Moss. Like you said in your last post, instead of maybe having a record-breaking season for a QB, he will be a solid top 5 QB.


Culpepper is the same QB no matter who plays WR. Culpepper is losing his best WR, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a really good QB. At the beginning of our debate, you were mentioning the noticeable difference in Culpepper's stats when Moss was out, and I agree there is a difference. But just because Culpepper is going to be short a couple 50 yard bombs next season, doesn't mean he won't lead a very effective offense.

It seemed to me that at the start of this thread you were saying that Culpepper will not even be close to the same QB that he is with Moss, and now your backpedaling and saying he's a top5 QB, which is it?


I never said I wouldn't want TO or Moss on my team. I never said I expect every player on the field to be a role model for all kids to come. There is a difference between being a model citizen or a role model and just being an ass. Football is their job.


You did say that you didn't want Moss on your team. You said they did well in that trade because Moss is a "locker room cancer". Sorry, but if you find that trade positive in any way, shape, or form for Minnesota, then you don't want Moss on your team period. You think Moss hasn't done his job because of his antics on and off the field? Just look at the score box every week... he's playing football, he's producing, and he's doing his job.

Ticked off or not you don't just get up and leave. That is not acceptable. I'm not saying Moss has to be all smiles, but it is wrong to everyone else on that field to just leave.


The game you're refering to was over. Moss had nothing else left to do other then walk away in disgust after his teammates lost the game. After years of dissappointing failure after failure, that kinda stuff can get to you know?

Moss was still limited from his injury, but in crunch time when it counted he produced. He put up a TD to make the game close in the 3rd quarter when the Vikes were 2 scores behind. Then he scored another TD that would have given Minny the lead, but it got called back on a penalty. They've got momentum right? One more chance and the Vikes should put away dismal 5-10 Washington and earn their playoff berth. How can they not hold up with the playoffs on the line? Next series Washington (Washington ?!?!) cuts up Minnesota's D like a hot knife through butter, even a last second score didn't give Minnesota a chance to win it.

I would leave that game too after my defense had given up 20+ points to the worst offense in the NFL (who were without their star RB, 5-10 on the season, and had scored 20+ points only 2 times in the 16 weeks before that). Did I mention this was the final week of the season, in which the Viking's playoff berth could have depended on the outcome. Randy scored 2 TDs on an injured leg (1 of which was called back on a penalty).....and the Minnesota D once again bungles it.

The Patriots have something going for them that no other team in the league seems to have and it's not their QB or defense. Maybe it's the coaching. We should know this year if thats it, but the fact that they are a "team" is part of what makes them so good. That's all I was saying. This isn't MLB so you can't just buy the best player at every position. You need some sort of "team" attitude to win and I feel Moss destroys that.


If anything that wins Super Bowls for New England, it's their scouting department. Rookies play for a lot cheaper than veterans, and if you pick the right ones you can assemble a salary cap era dynasty (until those rookie contracts are up). Show me the Richard Seymour, Teddy Bruschi, Ty Warren, etc. on Minnesota's defense. When has Minnesota had a Rodney Harrison/Ty Law combo in their secondary? Defense wins championships and New England is solid from top to bottom.

It's a simple fact that New England is a team loaded with talent from top to bottom year after year. All the "team mentality" bull that the media spouts doesn't change the fact that they have an imposing defense, MVP caliber QB, and the "clutchest" kicker in the game. Randy Moss had a good QB and nothing else and when everything falls apart and he gets bitter about it, people jump all over him.
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Postby kevinoc81 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57 am

Kensat30 wrote:
kevinoc81 wrote:First of all, I am going to end the C-Pepp thing because I don't think we are even debating the same point. You are trying to prove that he can be a good QB without Moss. I don't argue that. I was simply saying he is not the same QB without Moss. Like you said in your last post, instead of maybe having a record-breaking season for a QB, he will be a solid top 5 QB.


Culpepper is the same QB no matter who plays WR. Culpepper is losing his best WR, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a really good QB. At the beginning of our debate, you were mentioning the noticeable difference in Culpepper's stats when Moss was out, and I agree there is a difference. But just because Culpepper is going to be short a couple 50 yard bombs next season, doesn't mean he won't lead a very effective offense.

It seemed to me that at the start of this thread you were saying that Culpepper will not even be close to the same QB that he is with Moss, and now your backpedaling and saying he's a top5 QB, which is it?


There is a big difference in his stats. That's what I was referring to. There is a big difference between #1 (Manning and C-Pepp used to be here) and #5. He could lead an effective offense, but the 5-10 TDs and 500-1000 yards that he would have if Moss were still there is a significant difference in my opinion.

Kensat30 wrote:
Ticked off or not you don't just get up and leave. That is not acceptable. I'm not saying Moss has to be all smiles, but it is wrong to everyone else on that field to just leave.


The game you're refering to was over. Moss had nothing else left to do other then walk away in disgust after his teammates lost the game. After years of dissappointing failure after failure, that kinda stuff can get to you know?

Moss was still limited from his injury, but in crunch time when it counted he produced. He put up a TD to make the game close in the 3rd quarter when the Vikes were 2 scores behind. Then he scored another TD that would have given Minny the lead, but it got called back on a penalty. They've got momentum right? One more chance and the Vikes should put away dismal 5-10 Washington and earn their playoff berth. How can they not hold up with the playoffs on the line? Next series Washington (Washington ?!?!) cuts up Minnesota's D like a hot knife through butter, even a last second score didn't give Minnesota a chance to win it.

I would leave that game too after my defense had given up 20+ points to the worst offense in the NFL (who were without their star RB, 5-10 on the season, and had scored 20+ points only 2 times in the 16 weeks before that). Did I mention this was the final week of the season, in which the Viking's playoff berth could have depended on the outcome. Randy scored 2 TDs on an injured leg (1 of which was called back on a penalty).....and the Minnesota D once again bungles it.


You make my point for me. This is exactly what I don't like about Moss. Moss, as a member of the Minnesota Vikings didn't lose this game right? No. The team lost, not Moss. If that's your/his standpoint then he wasn't part of the team and it is GREAT that the Vikings got rid of him. This whole ramble you just wrote sounds like a Budweiser commercial. "Leon can't do everything!"
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