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Postby BrutallyHuge » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:43 am

toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


McNabb used to average 15-16 TDs a year. Then suddenly TO showed up, and now he's an elite QB? Ehh.. Vick has no WRs, a crappy line, and he's on his 3rd OC. One of these years Vick will put it together, you just want to get him cheap enough where if he doesn't pan out, you're team isn't ruined. But drafting Vick as a backup QB in the 8th round? That's a monster steal.


2000 PHI 21 passing, 6 rushing TDs
2001 PHI 25 passing, 2 rushing TDs
2002 PHI 17 passing, 6 rushing TDs (only started 10 games)
2003 PHI 16 passing, 3 rushing TDs
2004 PHI 31 passing, 3 rushing TDs

I don't know where you get the "average 15-16 TDs a year" thing. He only started 10 games in 2002 and still put up 23 total TDs. He had a terrible year in 2003, but other than that...you talkin' outta yo azz.

Suddenly, he's an elite QB? McNabb was the consensus #1 FF QB after the 2002 season (turned out that he busted in 2003), but he's not "suddenly" anything.

"One of these years Vick will put it together"

You can say that about any player. Oh man...if he just put it together...such a talent...just you wait!

He's gotta produce! He is a great talent, but his completion percentages are garbage. They keep giving him weapons...Price, Jenkins, and now White. We'll see...but I'm not touching this guy until I pickup a backup QB in the last 3 rounds.
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Postby maddog60 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:02 am

toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.
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Postby aussieboy » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:26 am

maddog60 wrote:
toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.


huh? What Vick doesn't work hard? Last time I checked a Vick led team got to the conference championship game. Sure he isn't the prototype QB, and yes he has some bad games, but at the end of the day this guy is a playmaker. You might be able to argue that Vick isn't a great fantasy option, but in real life there would only be 2 or 3 QBs id take over Vick. In fact, Peyton Manning is the ONLY QB id start a team with over Vick. No QB in the league dictates the way defenses play like Vick does. Give him time learning his new offense, and give him some wide out weapons....he'll come good.
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Postby BrutallyHuge » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:15 pm

aussieboy wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.


huh? What Vick doesn't work hard? Last time I checked a Vick led team got to the conference championship game. Sure he isn't the prototype QB, and yes he has some bad games, but at the end of the day this guy is a playmaker. You might be able to argue that Vick isn't a great fantasy option, but in real life there would only be 2 or 3 QBs id take over Vick. In fact, Peyton Manning is the ONLY QB id start a team with over Vick. No QB in the league dictates the way defenses play like Vick does. Give him time learning his new offense, and give him some wide out weapons....he'll come good.


You say "led team got to the conference championship game" (which first of all, doesn't make any sense) like he carried them on his back.

Well, Trent Dilfer led the Ravens to a Super Bowl....by default. I guess all QBs "lead" their team...if you put a Pee-Wee team in the NFL with Peyton as QB, he'd "lead" that team into last place.

The Falcons relied on a great 1-2 rushing attack last year and a very good defense. 14TDs and 12INTs passing is not leading a team to anything except mediocrity....their defense and running game got them that far.
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Postby Sixxgunn » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:25 pm

MadScott wrote:I think the intention is to really get him focused on pass first, run second.


I have a Detroit Lions inspired answer to the Vick-scramble problem. Much like tossing bricks, it might be controversial, but it just might be crazy enough to work. Electronic fence. Put the base unit on the center, and the shock collar on Vicks neck. Problem solved. :-b
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Postby maddog60 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:40 pm

aussieboy wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.


huh? What Vick doesn't work hard? Last time I checked a Vick led team got to the conference championship game. Sure he isn't the prototype QB, and yes he has some bad games, but at the end of the day this guy is a playmaker. You might be able to argue that Vick isn't a great fantasy option, but in real life there would only be 2 or 3 QBs id take over Vick. In fact, Peyton Manning is the ONLY QB id start a team with over Vick. No QB in the league dictates the way defenses play like Vick does. Give him time learning his new offense, and give him some wide out weapons....he'll come good.


first off, I did not say Vick doesn't work hard. What I said is that he never deserved that Pro Bowl selection, and that there were other guys who worked just as hard if not harder then him to be better at QB that got a slap in the face when they didn't get distinction, and he did for such a mediocre QB performance.

As for leading that team, it led him. That team was #1 in rushing the ffootball, and I'd bet a large bit of that had to do with their lack of ability to pass. That's a sign of a weak QB. Running is a nice attribute, but ultimately your QB has to be able to throw reliably.

In real life, Vick led the Falcons last year about as much as Quincy Carter led the Cowboys in 2003, and it reflects in how similar their stats were. Except Quincy Carter didn't a Pro Bowl appearance and a 10 year contract for his mediocre performance, but that's what I'd call smart management.
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Postby moochman » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:08 pm

Vick is a great value after the 6th round. That said, he is a huge risk if your plan is to use him as your starter. Though I feel that he is ready to have his breakout season in a more conventional sense, I still have to see it before I could play him as my #1QB.

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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:20 pm

I'm holding off on Vick this year... next year maybe. I really don't see the WR weapons in place for him to take the next step in his development as a passer. Crumpler is a solid TE and good target (I see him leaping to a new level in 2005), but you can't base a passing game around just a TE. Even KC has had Eddie Kennison and Priest Holmes as secondary targets...

Falcon's WRs are about the equivalent to Johnnie Morton right now.. and Crumpler is no Gonzalez...

I agree that Vick has the potential to be worth more than your average 5th-7th RB QB pick because of the immense value of the rushing yardage and TDs... But really I don't expect the passing to pickup much until his WRs mature a little bit. IF Jenkins or Whtie look good in 2005, then 2006 I am all for drafting Vick as my #1 QB.. Until then I will go with a more consistent player starting for me each week.
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Postby aussieboy » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:01 pm

BrutallyHuge wrote:
aussieboy wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.


huh? What Vick doesn't work hard? Last time I checked a Vick led team got to the conference championship game. Sure he isn't the prototype QB, and yes he has some bad games, but at the end of the day this guy is a playmaker. You might be able to argue that Vick isn't a great fantasy option, but in real life there would only be 2 or 3 QBs id take over Vick. In fact, Peyton Manning is the ONLY QB id start a team with over Vick. No QB in the league dictates the way defenses play like Vick does. Give him time learning his new offense, and give him some wide out weapons....he'll come good.


You say "led team got to the conference championship game" (which first of all, doesn't make any sense) like he carried them on his back.

Well, Trent Dilfer led the Ravens to a Super Bowl....by default. I guess all QBs "lead" their team...if you put a Pee-Wee team in the NFL with Peyton as QB, he'd "lead" that team into last place.

The Falcons relied on a great 1-2 rushing attack last year and a very good defense. 14TDs and 12INTs passing is not leading a team to anything except mediocrity....their defense and running game got them that far.


Ok, first of all I I was trashed last night when I wrote that, so I apologise for the poor grammar.

Secondly, if you wanna quote numbers please don't just include half the picture. Yeh sure 14-12 ratio isn't the best for a QB, but hows about 900 yards 3TDs rushing? Most of all time I beleive. Numbers can lie I think, and Vick's passing numbers don't truly reflect the impact Vick has on the game. He makes plays. Through the air or on the ground.

You said it was Atlanta's rushing game that was the major factor in their success last season, wasn't Vick a major part of this? In fact, you could argue that Dunn's success was due in large part to Vick being so dominant on the ground.

Oh and don't feed me rhetoric about peewee QBs and Dilfer etc. The fact of the matter is this, Atlanta WOULD NOT have got to the Conference game without Vick. Simple. The Ravens prob still would've still got to the SuperBowl without Dilfer, that's the difference. It's easy to get confused with fantasy and real life, I understand, but I doubt there is a single player in the league that defensive co-ordinators spend more time trying to contain.
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Postby Vick 4 Mayor » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:16 pm

maddog60 wrote:
aussieboy wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
toofunny wrote:
maddog60 wrote:Starting Vick is like going all in with an open-ended straight draw. Sure its fun and exciting, but I wouldn't do it unless I was desperate.


But when the price is right, you never fold. And Vick in the 8th round, a 25 year old pro bowl qb, who is capable of being a FF stud?


You say that like his inclusion of the Pro Bowl last year wasn't a slap in the face to every hard working talented and productive player in the NFL that actually earned the distinction.


huh? What Vick doesn't work hard? Last time I checked a Vick led team got to the conference championship game. Sure he isn't the prototype QB, and yes he has some bad games, but at the end of the day this guy is a playmaker. You might be able to argue that Vick isn't a great fantasy option, but in real life there would only be 2 or 3 QBs id take over Vick. In fact, Peyton Manning is the ONLY QB id start a team with over Vick. No QB in the league dictates the way defenses play like Vick does. Give him time learning his new offense, and give him some wide out weapons....he'll come good.


first off, I did not say Vick doesn't work hard. What I said is that he never deserved that Pro Bowl selection, and that there were other guys who worked just as hard if not harder then him to be better at QB that got a slap in the face when they didn't get distinction, and he did for such a mediocre QB performance.

As for leading that team, it led him. That team was #1 in rushing the ffootball, and I'd bet a large bit of that had to do with their lack of ability to pass. That's a sign of a weak QB. Running is a nice attribute, but ultimately your QB has to be able to throw reliably.

In real life, Vick led the Falcons last year about as much as Quincy Carter led the Cowboys in 2003, and it reflects in how similar their stats were. Except Quincy Carter didn't a Pro Bowl appearance and a 10 year contract for his mediocre performance, but that's what I'd call smart management.


so i guess it is just a coincedence that the falcons were 1-11 the previous season, vick comes back, and they end up 4-12. it must also be a coincidence that in the 2 years vick started, the falcons made the playoffs, beating green bay one year and getting to the nfc championship the other.

just look at the falcons record with and without vick, i don't feel like looking it up again but with vick the falcons had an increase of about .500 in winning percentage as opposed to without vick. with vick in the game, teams have to usually double spy him, opening the running game.
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