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Who makes who better?

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Who makes who better?

Postby TitaniumTitan » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:13 am

I just wanna see what you guys think, I've had some debuts about this with my friends.

Did Randy Moss make C-Pepp better or the other way around?
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Re: Who makes who better?

Postby M_Zimm_ffc » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:43 am

TitaniumTitan wrote:I just wanna see what you guys think, I've had some debuts about this with my friends.

Did Randy Moss make C-Pepp better or the other way around?
Moss made Culpepper better.

Moss produced with every QB he played with. Randall Cunningham had the best passing season of his career in 98 when he was throwing to Moss, and that was after he was on his way down and way past his prime. Brad Johnson's career was seemingly on it's way down until he played with Moss in 99. He got hurt after a few games but went on to have some great seasons with Washington and Tampa. Jeff George looked like a great QB throwing to Moss in 99. If you look at his stats, he had a few good years, but the seasons around 1999, 99 is the one that stands out. Heck, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte looked like All Stars when they played with Moss.

The fact is that Moss makes any QB he plays with better. None of those QBs that I mentioned were great in the season prior to playing with Moss, or in the games prior. I think Moss will be just as good in Oakland with Kerry Collins. I would not be surprised at all to see another 1700 yard season with 15 TDs. Daunte is a great QB, but no way he's as good without Moss.

Last season, in games that Moss played Daunte had an average 117.5 QB rating. When Moss was out he had below a 100 QB rating. Sure, it's only 17 points, but during that stretchMoss was out we played defenses of Indianapolis, Green Bay, New York Giants, and Detroit. In that same stretch he averaged 235 yards pasing per game, almost 100 yards less than the 330 he averaged with Moss.

Daunte's a great QB, still number two in the league imo, but he just not as good without the best WR in the league.
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Postby maddog60 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:07 am

Mutual.

Moss is a great catching talent, so he makes any QBs numbers go up. However, I truly believe that Culpepper is one of the top QBs in the NFL, and like a top QB, he inflates his WRs stats. Basically, they reciprocated the inflation of the other's statistics.
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Postby M_Zimm_ffc » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:11 am

maddog60 wrote:Mutual.

Moss is a great catching talent, so he makes any QBs numbers go up. However, I truly believe that Culpepper is one of the top QBs in the NFL, and like a top QB, he inflates his WRs stats. Basically, they reciprocated the inflation of the other's statistics.
I would agree with you, as I want to believe that Daunte really is that good; but Moss really hasn't been any better since playing with Daunte than he was before. His 2003 was the best season any WR has ever had, averaging 100 yards and 1 TD every game, but I think that's more a product of Moss maturing and not dropping as many balls as he did when he was younger.
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Postby BrutallyHuge » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:13 am

Moss makes Culpepper better.

Half the time, CPepp just wildly threw it 50 yards and Moss just outjumped the DB. Moss is a freak.
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Postby Free Bagel » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:19 am

This isn't even close. Moss has done just fine (if not better) without Culpepper, yet Culpepper has done significantly worse without Moss.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:19 am

Moss made Cpepp better - easily.

Cpepp is not accurate and he doesn't read defenses well. His strengths - a strong arm and running ability - meshed perfectly with Moss.

Cpepp threw the vast majority of his passes (over 70%) to recievers less than 10 yds downfield - basically dumpoffs. These were available to him because Moss took the secondary deep regularly. The same can be said with the running game - both fromthe RBs and Cpepp - there was more room to run with the secondary having its hands full tracking down Moss. You will see a significantly different MIN offense this yr unless Williamson or MRob becomes Moss, and as of now thats almost blasphemy to think Williamson will come anywhere close to being the threat Moss was.

Cpepp is not the great QB many make him out to be - he is very good, but he has serious flaws in his game. Those flaws were perfectly masked by Moss' abilities. If you dont believe me, thats fine - it will all come out in the wash this yr - just watch.
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Postby anderbudd » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:44 pm

This topic was discussed on Playbook today on the NFL network. Not sure if they posted anything to the website. Anyway, CPep's numbers in all categories were significantly worse during games where Moss was out last year.

The beauty of Moss is that when he's on the field, it takes a CB and Safety to cover him, and he still comes up with the ball. By tying up 2 backfield defenders, he opens up the other recievers.

Back when the Cowboys were good, Michael Irvin used to intentionally run slants away from the play and pull 2 defenders or more with him. Having a reputation like Moss does makes the entire offense better (Including C-Pep), and makes defenses quivver.
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Postby koffeeboy » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:47 pm

I think the WR in most cases makes the QB better.

McNabb's numbers were much better in 04' than they had been before. He became the first guy to throw for 30 tds and less than 10 ints in a season.

Of course the combo of both great ones (Montana/Rice, Young/Rice, Manning/Harrison, McNabb/Owens, C-Pepp/Moss, etc) make for a much, much better situation all the way around. Especially if the team incoporates a running game to boot.
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Postby Mercer Boy » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:33 pm

koffeeboy wrote:Of course the combo of both great ones (Montana/Rice, Young/Rice, Manning/Harrison, McNabb/Owens, C-Pepp/Moss, etc) make for a much, much better situation all the way around. Especially if the team incoporates a running game to boot.


Absolutely. It's a whole team effort. If the run game is working, it opens up the pass game.

In Moss' case, though...I'm thinking he helped Culpepper immensely. I don't see nearly as many "chunk balls" coming from him this year. Still, the Minny run game is pretty good...it's just split up between 3-4 guys. NE is like that also...except it's 3-4 RB's for the run game and 8-9 guys in the pass game.
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