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Postby Vick 4 Mayor » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:44 am

the wr's he has now without TO make pinkston, thrash, and fredex look like the colt's wr corps. the 3 wr's left on the roster without TO have a combined 27 catches for 304 yards and 0 td's in their careers. there would be at least 15 qb's i'd take before mcnabb if TO ends up not playing and they don't acquire a respetable wr or 2 through trades.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:46 am

Dr. Duran Duran wrote:If Owens isn't there, he has two unproven WR's as his top two threats. While I agree, he's done it with Pinkston, Thrash, Fred-Ex and a bunch of other castaways, I'll take my chances with guys like Manning, Culpepper, Green, Bulger, Delhomme, Collins, Hasselbeck...you get the idea. In 2002 and 2003, McNabb threw 17 and 16 touchdowns respectively. That's not going to cut it for me. I realize he threw 20+ in 2000 and 2001, but I'd rather depend on quarterbacks with proven numbers like Green or Bulger. I'd rather depend on a guy like Collins who has more upside. I'd rather depend on the always dependable Brett Favre.


In 2002 he only played 10 games. He was easily on par with the top 3 QBs that year, there's a reason why he was drafted as the top QB often in 2003's fantasy drafts. I don't see how you can count against a guy numbers he was posting that were better fantasy numbers than Vick had in 02 just because he got injured and missed almost half the season.
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Postby GMoney » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:07 am

not this crap again... IF I SEE 1 MORE POST ABOUT VICK BETWEEN VICK 4 MAYOR AND MADDOG ... im going to go insane and completely stop reading cafe information.

This is becoming rediculas guys. You need to grow up both of you and get over yourselves.

agree to disagree.

To the Mods: if these 2 cant get over their differences with eachother YOU need to step in and do something.

I cant stand this anymore. If i have to read anymore hijacked threads about vick and the eagles ill just stop coming. im sure im not the only 1.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:23 am

GMoney wrote:not this crap again... IF I SEE 1 MORE POST ABOUT VICK BETWEEN VICK 4 MAYOR AND MADDOG ... im going to go insane and completely stop reading cafe information.


GMoney, for the record I didn't even seen Vick 4 Mayor's post when I made mine. You'll notice I was quoting Dr. Duran Duran, and I only even mentioned Vick's name, because of the seaosn in reference, Vick was considered by season's end the best fantasy QB in football that year. I have no intentions of hijacking this thread, and only intended to point out that looking at McNabb's season totals in 02 as if they were a full season, horribly skews how well he performed.
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Postby Dr. Duran Duran » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:16 am

maddog60 wrote:
GMoney wrote:not this crap again... IF I SEE 1 MORE POST ABOUT VICK BETWEEN VICK 4 MAYOR AND MADDOG ... im going to go insane and completely stop reading cafe information.


GMoney, for the record I didn't even seen Vick 4 Mayor's post when I made mine. You'll notice I was quoting Dr. Duran Duran, and I only even mentioned Vick's name, because of the seaosn in reference, Vick was considered by season's end the best fantasy QB in football that year. I have no intentions of hijacking this thread, and only intended to point out that looking at McNabb's season totals in 02 as if they were a full season, horribly skews how well he performed.


I have to retort my arguement a bit, I didn't consider his injury. My apologies.
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Postby Shader » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:15 am

Without TO, McNabb has no weapons. And he also has gained weight and decided not to use his legs anymore as well, so he won't be helping out in that department.

Saying he'll be a top 3 qb without TO is just ridiculous. WHO IS HE GOING TO THROW TO? I know one thing, Westbrook would become VERY important...and if he got injured, it would be lights out for the Eagles.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:18 am

Shader wrote:Without TO, McNabb has no weapons. And he also has gained weight and decided not to use his legs anymore as well, so he won't be helping out in that department.


McNabb's always been a big boy, he's no bigger than in 03 when he had no weapons either and still had no problem rushing for around 100 yards to defeat Green Bay in the play-offs. Or even if you watched last year, that game against the cowboys, where he scrambled for about 8 seconds before launching a deep bomb. The man still uses his legs. The reason he rushed less is most likely because he had someone to throw to finally, unlike all previous years, thus he didn't have to run as much.

Saying he'll be a top 3 qb without TO is just ridiculous. WHO IS HE GOING TO THROW TO? I know one thing, Westbrook would become VERY important...and if he got injured, it would be lights out for the Eagles.


Why would it be ridiculous? McNabb has proven before he can be a top 3 QB without anyone to throw to. In 02 his most reliable WR was Duce Staley, but he was putting up top 3 numbers easily. At least with McNabb, we know he can get it done with no WRs, we can't say the same about Culpepper, who many people have kept in top 2 despite losing Randy Moss.
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Postby eaglesrule » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:21 am

this is the same argument all the time. mcnabb was still alright when na brown and torrance small were the receivers. Before injusry, he was THE stud in 2002, and that was with Pinky and Thrash. And that was pinkston's first or second year I believe, and Mcnabb's third. You think it was those two elevating his game, or the otherway around?

He has performed with crap before.


He developed some rapport with greg lewis, brown is an unknwon, but its not absurd to think he could be as good as thrash, and he still has lj smith and westbrook to throw to. The naysayers need to temper their opinions a bit, as he has done it with trash and inexperience. He is much more experienced and confident qb now as well.
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Postby Kensat30 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:00 pm

I have McNabb 4th on my QB board behind Bulger until the TO situation gets resolved later this week. If Owens gets back into the Eagles camp and starts practicing again McNabb moves back up to 3, but until then he's 4th. That means I'm not drafting him right now (unless he falls to the 5th).

McNabb has a rookie WR and the #4 WR from last year as his current 2 starting WRs. They couldn't be worse than Pinkston/Thrash? Reggie Brown doesn't even know the freakin playbook.. And McNabb is solid without any surrounding talent? Get real, don't you guys remember what happened at the beginning of 2003? It's really tough to be a stud QB when your passing yardage hovers around 3,300 and you struggle to throw 23 passing TDs. That's what he was before TO came into town. He needs to put up semi-decent passing stats to be at the top of the QB pool. Without TO, those semi-decent passing stats are far from guaranteed.

And the Last time I checked, McNabb is not the same elite running QB he used to be. I think it's safe to say that Donovan isn't a 600 yard rushing QB anymore, very few veteran QBs (Vick) maintain those types of levels. But, is he even good for the 400+ yards rushing like Culpepper and the former McNair and be an upper-echelon rushing QB? These guys have a BIG advantage over the average passing QB who struggles to reach 100 yards and/or a single rushing TD.

From watching McNabb last season, he may have settled into his roles as the scrambling PASSER and 400 yards and 5 TDs are no longer possible for this guy. If he only runs 50 times and amassing 250 rushing yards, he's in the range of underrated QBs like Brooks and Plummer, but heis far from a lock as a top QB.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bulger put up similar rushing TDs as McNabb this season 8-o
------

Without TO and his immense presence in the passing game, how do we know that McNabb doesn't fall back to the pack this year? Bulger and Collins can DEMOLISH McNabb in the passing game, and we don't know that McNabb's rushing numbers will put him up over the top. More likely, he will be struggling to keep up with other QBs that can throw for 250 and a multiple TDs every game.


Rushing stats from a 600 yard QB:
(2000 McNabb)

5 29 1 |
5 45 1 |
3 20 0 |
7 23 0 |
7 57 0 |
5 43 0 |
7 35 1 |
5 25 0 |
3 42 0 |
5 58 0 |
5 27 0 |
5 29 1 |
11 125 1 |
7 39 1 |
3 12 0 |
4 20 0 |

87/629/6

Good chance at 8+ points a week (200 yards passing) with the upside for 20 points (200/3 passing) in rushing yardage alone. Rarely scores less than 3 points in any given week(75 yards passing).
-----

Rushing stats from a 400 yard QB:
(2001 McNabb)
9 48 0 |
5 16 1 |
4 19 0 |
3 24 0 |
6 35 0 |
6 30 0 |
4 26 0 |
3 37 1 |
4 24 0 |
3 39 0 |
9 41 0 |
7 39 0 |
7 25 0 |
5 31 0 |
7 48 0 |

82/482/2

Nets you 2-4 points every single week of the year (50-100 yards passing). No longer the elite rushing QB that can put up 20 points a game, but is still very consistent in getting you week in/week out points.
----

Rushing stats from a 200 yard QB:
(2005 McNabb)

4 12 0 |
3 24 1 |
5 -2 1 |
1 2 0 |
3 6 0 |
2 28 0 |
6 36 0 |
0 0 0 |
2 14 0 |
5 34 0 |
5 30 1 |
0 0 0 |
2 8 0 |
4 29 0 |
0 0 0 |

42/221/3

Just as likely to get you 3 points or 0 points, with the occasional rushing TD thrown in there. These type of stats aren't going to give you a 75 yard or 200 yard edge in most weeks, these type of rushing stats can turn a good passer into a top5 QB. It's not going to turn a decent passer into a top5 QB. And McNabb hasn't proven he is anything more than decent at passing the football without TO on the team.

----
McNabb passing without TO:

2000 phi | 16 | 330 569 58.0 3365 5.9 21 13
2001 phi | 16 | 285 493 57.8 3233 6.6 25 12
2002 phi | 10 | 211 361 58.4 2289 6.3 17 6
2003 phi | 16 | 275 478 57.5 3216 6.7 16 11

Avg 16 game output:
315/543, 3458/23/12 / 206.32 FP

Tom Brady 2004:
288/474, 3690/28/14 / 231.6 FP


McNabb rushes for 3 points in any given week and he's the better QB than Tom Brady. McNabb rushes for 0 or 1 point and Brady is the better QB.
Last edited by Kensat30 on Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Heavyg25 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:03 pm

Shader wrote:Without TO, McNabb has no weapons. And he also has gained weight and decided not to use his legs anymore as well, so he won't be helping out in that department.

Saying he'll be a top 3 qb without TO is just ridiculous. WHO IS HE GOING TO THROW TO? I know one thing, Westbrook would become VERY important...and if he got injured, it would be lights out for the Eagles.


Speaking of rediculous...... Where did you rank him before TO was traded to them last year? Please, no more posts from you.
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