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Postby awwchrist » Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:12 pm

As much crap as manning takes for not getting the Colts into the Superbowl, the guy has heart. Sure he doesn't run around and jump into other players arms after a 4th quarter tying TD, or headbutt his TE after a catch, or pump his arm in the air.

The guy goes out and is strictly buisness. He's old school. He's like Barry Sanders handing the ball to the ref in the endzone after a score.

He's the epitome of a leader. He goes out, and does whatever it takes to win a game. After he broke Marino's record last year did he wave to the crowd and stop the game and give in to the roaring fans as much as any other athelete would? No. He walked straight off the field. The guy looked like he couldn't wait to hit the sideline.

You guys are arguing about unmeasurables. Frankly, it's kinda ridiculous.
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Postby Warhawk » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:13 pm

Yeah, I think that you're mistaking being emotional vs. being stoic for having drive vs. not having drive. In art, for instance, great warriors are often portrayed as being stoic - that doesn't mean they don't care about what they do.
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Postby skibrett15 » Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:22 pm

Only Thing I think is that Favre's got the magic. Tom Brady (as much as I hate him) has a little magic, but nobody engineers a comeback like favre. Granted, the reason for the comeback may have something to do with his earlier mistakes, but the only thing I'll say about Favre is he is the current comeback master in my book. I looked at the stat in the monday night game (brett favre has never won a game when down by 15+ points going into the 4th quarter) and it only makes me think how many times he must have scored 14 to win, or 13, or 10, or 3, not that he can't engineer a big comeback.
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Postby Warhawk » Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:34 pm

As of the 2004 season, Brett Favre has had 34 fourth quarter comeback wins.

As of the Jaguars game this year, Manning has had 23.

Favre has been starting for 14 seasons, manning for 7.

That means that Favre has 2.42 fourth quarter comebacks per year, and Manning has 3.28.

And Favre has never won a game when down by 15 points in the fourth quarter?

Manning has won one down 21 with four minutes left in the game.

Statistically, Manning is better at comebacks than Favre.

:-D

If anyone hasn't noticed by now, I'm a stats guy. Half my posts have weird stats in them to ponder.

So ponder away. :-b
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Postby maddog60 » Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:20 am

One thing to consider when viewing those comeback statistics:

how many times during those 14 years as Favre losing and needed to comeback in the 4th, and the same for Manning. It shouldn't matter how many total games they've played, its how many times have they successfully comeback when they needed to in the 4th quarter. Because the best QB at making comebacks could have far less comebacks than another player because he's not put in that situation as often.
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QB rating

Postby echo8287 » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:05 am

Most durable QB> Favre, then Manning,then Culpepper,then Mcnabb.
In the clutch QB> Farve,Manning,Mcnabb,Culpepper
Does the most with the least>Favre,Culpepper,Mcnabb,Manning
Most heart>Favre,Mcnabb,Manning,Culpepper
Best arm>Favre,Culpepper,Manning,Mcnabb
Best Scrambler>Mcnabb,Favre,Culpepper,Manning
Hardest to tackle>Culpepper,Mcnabb,Farve,Manning
Most accurate passer>Manning,Favre,Culpepper,Mcnabb
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Postby lmcjaho » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:19 am

maddog60 wrote:One thing to consider when viewing those comeback statistics:

how many times during those 14 years as Favre losing and needed to comeback in the 4th, and the same for Manning. It shouldn't matter how many total games they've played, its how many times have they successfully comeback when they needed to in the 4th quarter. Because the best QB at making comebacks could have far less comebacks than another player because he's not put in that situation as often.


This is actually one of my personal all-time pet peeves maddog - probably started by all the man-love shown to that donkey Elway back in the day (before he finally got a SB and actually earned some of the worship) when the announcers used to go out of the way to point out how many 4th quarter comebacks he had led... If the guy was so damn good how come his team always had to comeback in the 4th??? Yes, it was partly due to the defense, but IMO a "comeback expert" is usually in large part responsible for his team's problems to begin with...

Plummer was always hyped as a 4th quarter comeback QB too :-t
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Postby Warhawk » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:25 am

One thing you guys gotta understand is that I'm not arguing against Favre as a great QB: quite the opposite, I think he's one of the greatest QBs of all time. Rather, I'm arguing against what seems to be your opinion that Manning is NOT a great QB.

Just dont' think I'm trying to put down Favre, and realize that by raising up Manning that neccesarily means that I'm putting down Favre. ;-)
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Re: QB rating

Postby eaglesrule » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:01 am

echo8287 wrote:Does the most with the least>Favre,Culpepper,Mcnabb,Manning


this should be instantly invalidating.

Again, I shouldn't have to repeat -- but culpepper, up until now has had moss. He is without moss now and not doing much of anything. And again, farve has traditionally had weapons.

He is "doing something" now -- if you mean accumualting empty statistics, but he ain't winning games.

I'm not the biggest vick supporter, but he and mcnabb have helmed winning teams with absoloute garbage at WR. And I mean garbage. Na Brown, torrance Small, Thrash, Pinky, Mitchell -- that is some real crap.

So Farve doesn't have receivers. They still have some tight ends and a running game. Maybe he should be a game manager then, keep the defense of the field?

EDIT --

For curiosity's sake I investigate this and here are the luminaries donovan had prior to these weapons on offense:

Jeb Weaver, Charles Johnson, Torrance Small, Na Brown, Pinkston, Thrash, Duce Staley, Darnell Autry, Correll Buckhalter, Cecil Martin, Stanley Pritchett, Chad Lewis

Duce was like the only weapon, sometimes chad lewis.

Now think of the things Cpep has had:


Moss, Cris Carter, Micheal Bennet, ROBERT SMITH, Jake Reed, Burelson, Moe Williams and wiggins who is alright. That's just to name a few.
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Re: QB rating

Postby Warhawk » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:40 am

eaglesrule wrote:
echo8287 wrote:Does the most with the least>Favre,Culpepper,Mcnabb,Manning


this should be instantly invalidating.

Again, I shouldn't have to repeat -- but culpepper, up until now has had moss. He is without moss now and not doing much of anything. And again, farve has traditionally had weapons.

He is "doing something" now -- if you mean accumualting empty statistics, but he ain't winning games.

I'm not the biggest vick supporter, but he and mcnabb have helmed winning teams with absoloute garbage at WR. And I mean garbage. Na Brown, torrance Small, Thrash, Pinky, Mitchell -- that is some real crap.

So Farve doesn't have receivers. They still have some tight ends and a running game. Maybe he should be a game manager then, keep the defense of the field?


The thing is, Favre has been around for so long that he has both done a lot with nothing and been surrounded by good players. We know he's good because he has done well in both situations.

On the other hand, one can argue about who makes who look good for a long time. Even take the Colts. On any other team, Wayne is not as much of a top-flite reciever as he is now. Why? Manning. Though, he is good, and has very good hands. The real example here is Stokely. There is no way you can say he's as good as manning makes him look. there's a very specific reason he was so sucessful last year: the other WRs on the team. Stokely is a fast slot receiver, which gives him an advantage. Because teams focus on covering harrison and wayne, stokely tends to get matched up against a slower person, and he is fast enough to burn your average linebacker. If harrison wasn't as dominating, however, teams could afford to cover stokely better. The fact is, in that offense, with that QB, offensive line, and recievers, I could catch 40 balls for 600 yards or so. And I don't play football. Now, yes, other players do in some ways make manning look good. However, it is important not to forget that he makes people look good, and that the people around him make each other look good. The Packers team that won the super bowl had this kind of chemistry.

Also, the argument about winning the super bowl defining how sucessful a QB's career is is complete bs. Marino never won one (and for that I've seen him called a wanna-be on some message boards, how absurd is that), Elway almost didn't, just pulled it off at the end, Fran Tarkenton never won it - he lost it 3 times, Jim Kelly never won it, he lost it... to many times..., Warren Moon never won one.

Interestingly, the quarterback position is the only one where this applies. Gayle Sayers and Barry Sanders never won one, but they're RBs, so no one faults them for it. So why do QBs get this burden placed on them, that to be great they have to win a specific game, when virtually no other job in sports does. We recognize the greatness of almost any other player even if they havne't won the championship when it comes to their particular sport, yet when we hear of a QB who hasn't won the super bowl, we shy away from praising them.

Get over it people. There have clearly been great players who have never won the super bowl, and even more amazingly, medicre ones who have. I dare you to say that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino, Manning, or Tarkenton.

Don't define a career by one game.
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