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Matt Schaub v. Mike Vick

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Postby BrutallyHuge » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:03 am

Kensat30 wrote:I know this is all hypothetical, but if I had a time machine I would be willing to bet money that a Vick led Falcon's team beats New England last Sunday.

Honestly, despite the statline, Schaub did not look that good at all. He passed for more yards than Vick ever has in his career, but they still lost the game. You can't bring the blitz against Vick, it's almost impossible to stop him from running for a first down.


Philly blitzed Vick like crazy in the last NFC Championship game. Vick was sacked 4 times, fumbled once, and threw a pick. He statline was a sorry 11 for 24 for 136 yards and 0 TDs and 1 INT. He had 4 rushes for 26 yards.

Blitzing Vick can be done effectively provided you have the right personnel and right system.

The defense blew the game for them. I cannot believe that someone is saying that it's Schaub's fault and that Vick would've won.

Here's what happened because I'm POSITIVE that you didn't watch the game: "With Patriots backed up at their 26 on second-and-20, Atlanta cornerback Allen Rossum was called for a blatant pass interference on Deion Branch -- the last of a four-penalties-in-four-plays stretch that gave New England a first down at the Falcons 44."

4 penalties in 4 plays to give NE the ball at the ATL 44. That is ridiculous. We all know what happened after that....Vini kicks another one.
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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:19 am

BrutallyHuge wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:I know this is all hypothetical, but if I had a time machine I would be willing to bet money that a Vick led Falcon's team beats New England last Sunday.

Honestly, despite the statline, Schaub did not look that good at all. He passed for more yards than Vick ever has in his career, but they still lost the game. You can't bring the blitz against Vick, it's almost impossible to stop him from running for a first down.


Philly blitzed Vick like crazy in the last NFC Championship game. Vick was sacked 4 times, fumbled once, and threw a pick. He statline was a sorry 11 for 24 for 136 yards and 0 TDs and 1 INT. He had 4 rushes for 26 yards.

Blitzing Vick can be done effectively provided you have the right personnel and right system.


The Falcon's were a very good football team, but I think it's safe to say that the Eagle's were the only legit Super Bowl contenders in the NFC last year. Falcon's came in ranked with something like the #12 defense, the Eagle's had the #4 defense. The Falcon's were simply outclassed in this game...

The defense blew the game for them. I cannot believe that someone is saying that it's Schaub's fault and that Vick would've won.

Here's what happened because I'm POSITIVE that you didn't watch the game: "With Patriots backed up at their 26 on second-and-20, Atlanta cornerback Allen Rossum was called for a blatant pass interference on Deion Branch -- the last of a four-penalties-in-four-plays stretch that gave New England a first down at the Falcons 44."

4 penalties in 4 plays to give NE the ball at the ATL 44. That is ridiculous. We all know what happened after that....Vini kicks another one.


I watched every single play of this game on replay, in fact I watch every single play of EVERY game on replay each and every week. SuperFan + Tivo = I watch the games.

Matt Schaub had a good game... if all you do is glance at his stateline, see the gaudy 300 yards passing and 3 TDs with no INTS, but he really didn't play well in my eyes (Because I watched the game). He had several INTs that were outright dropped, but those incompletions still played a major role in killing drives. Sure Vick makes some poor throws, but Schaub had those poor throws as well.. and he passed it a lot more than Vick would have even attempted had he played.

With Vick in the game, he scrambles for a few first downs on 3rd and 6, 2nd and 8, etc.. And the game doesn't even become the shootout in the first place.

Sure you can look at the last drive of the game and notice that penalties killed them in that drive.. But I look at the overall picture, where a tired defense couldn't shut down a Corey Dillon that has looked old and slow for the first quarter of the season. Matt Schaub looked inconsistent.

Atlanta's two pronged rushing attack (that has been dominating in almost every game thus far) was limited to 24 combined carries between Dunn and Duckett. They had almost the same total rushes as in the Seattle game when they fell behind like 3 scores in the first half!

No Vick = different game. No Vick = different team. It's as simple as that.

The Falcon's with Vick are proven winners, why would you mess with that for a freaking draft pick and to play a guy with 1 career start (a loss) under his belt.

Edit - I just remembered he started a game last year as well. He lost that one too, but we'll blame that on the 2nd stringers...
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Postby josebach » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:32 pm

Kensat30 wrote:I watched every single play of this game on replay, in fact I watch every single play of EVERY game on replay each and every week. SuperFan + Tivo = I watch the games.


Damn!!! I't might have sounded like I was being a smartass when I said you guys are the experts, but I wasn't. I know guys like Kensat and Plindsey know a whole lot more about this game than I do.

I'm more of a baseball guy.
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Postby Challie » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:23 pm

Kensat, I normally really like your opinions, but in this case it seems like you're trying to repport the facts to fit your hypothesis.

I, too, watched that game and Falcons WRs were dropping passes that even Koren Robinson would catch. Schaub got robbed by Jenkins and White having hands of stone in the first quarter.

I still believe there's no QB controversy, and that team has done a great job of working with what they have. A great running team and Vick getting 4-5 first downs by taking off when others would throw keeps the chains and clock moving, shortening the game and providing their solid defense rest time. But I do think Schaub is a QB with a big future that doesn't involve holding a clipboard.
... in my opinion, of course - but that should always go without saying.
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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:09 pm

Challie wrote:Kensat, I normally really like your opinions, but in this case it seems like you're trying to repport the facts to fit your hypothesis.

I, too, watched that game and Falcons WRs were dropping passes that even Koren Robinson would catch. Schaub got robbed by Jenkins and White having hands of stone in the first quarter.

I still believe there's no QB controversy, and that team has done a great job of working with what they have. A great running team and Vick getting 4-5 first downs by taking off when others would throw keeps the chains and clock moving, shortening the game and providing their solid defense rest time. But I do think Schaub is a QB with a big future that doesn't involve holding a clipboard.


Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he played a BAD game, I'm just saying that he didn't play that good. Atlanta's WRs are pretty bad, but Schaub was not consistent either. He missed some throws he should have made, and he forced some throws he shouldn't have made. No QB is free of mistakes, but Schaub just wasn't consistent enough out there for my liking.

I also think Schaub has a future as a starting QB in the NFL, it's just not with Michael Vick's Falcons. Matt Schaub is already a starting caliber QB IMO and that's saying a lot considering the amount of NFL experience the guy has. I'm sure several teams would love to have him come in and start for them right away, that's why the Falcon's will not let this guy go for cheap(Think multiple first day picks, or a 1st rounder + throw ins).

I just don't think the Falcon's should seriously consider trading Vick and elevating Schaub on the hunch that he can lead them deep into the playoffs. Considering where Atlanta has been with Vick and where they are headed as a team in general... the smart move is to keep Schaub around as an insurance policy to Vick, until you can find the right team to trade for Schaub at a high price.
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Postby BrutallyHuge » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:25 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he played a BAD game, I'm just saying that he didn't play that good. Atlanta's WRs are pretty bad, but Schaub was not consistent either. He missed some throws he should have made, and he forced some throws he shouldn't have made. .


Wait...you are using the inconsistent argument...and you are saying that Vick is consistent compared to Schaub?

Michael Vick...the guy who was 27th in Completion % last year...the guy with 16 fumbles last year in 15 games (and 4 fumbles in 4 games this yaer)....the guy with less passing yards than Orton, Pennington, Rattay, etc. this year.

With all this talk about Vick destroying teams with his legs, how many rush TDs did he have last year? 3? Wow...he tied with Marc Bulger and had less than Aaron Brooks. He also barely beat out McCown, Garcia, Flutie (!), and Brees...who all had 2 rushing TDs.

I guess you are right...Vick is more consistent when you are used to seeing fumbles and horrendous passing.
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Postby eaglesrule » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:48 pm

the seriously should "slash" that guy.

The onyl problem is it would be obvious when the other dude comes in, what they are doing.

Im really suprised a team hasn't tried to get like a donovan and a vick (other than cap concerns) and try to double team like that.

Anyway, the baseball adage rings true here -- there is a difference between throwing and pitching, vick is certainly a thrower.

having him run the westcoast offense is f'n stupid though. they should have an expanded version of what randall cunningham had to do with the eagles. a few big plays a game, let the defense win. Of course, vick could do more than that, but you get the idea. As it stands, he certianly isn't doing what I would call "winning games"
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Postby Kensat30 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:07 pm

BrutallyHuge wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he played a BAD game, I'm just saying that he didn't play that good. Atlanta's WRs are pretty bad, but Schaub was not consistent either. He missed some throws he should have made, and he forced some throws he shouldn't have made. .


Wait...you are using the inconsistent argument...and you are saying that Vick is consistent compared to Schaub?



Schaub passed the ball a lot this past Sunday right? I said he was inconsistent at times passing the ball... Michael Vick normally passes the ball a lot less than Schaub did this past Sunday. Schaub passing more is less effective than Mike Vick passing less. That's the argument.

Michael Vick...the guy who was 27th in Completion % last year...the guy with 16 fumbles last year in 15 games (and 4 fumbles in 4 games this yaer)....the guy with less passing yards than Orton, Pennington, Rattay, etc. this year.


Yeah and the same guy who is going to break all the QB rushing records that stand today.


With all this talk about Vick destroying teams with his legs, how many rush TDs did he have last year? 3? Wow...he tied with Marc Bulger and had less than Aaron Brooks. He also barely beat out McCown, Garcia, Flutie (!), and Brees...who all had 2 rushing TDs.

I guess you are right...Vick is more consistent when you are used to seeing fumbles and horrendous passing.


Yeah, conveniently ignore the 900+ rushing yards by Vick (more than some starting RBs) and how the Falcon's had the #1 rushing attack in the NFL last year. Notice how Dunn and Duckett combined for 16 TDs last year? How many of those were the result of Vick being stopped inside the 5 yard line after a long run? Look it up, you'd be surprised.

Furthermore, how many times did Vick run for a first down?
----

We all know Vick isn't a very good passer... but who says you need a good passing QB to win football games? Vick is in a class of his own in regards to run based QBs.. there is no previous example of a guy who plays like Vick, so you can't really compare him to other QBs based on stats.

You can look at wins/losses, but other teams don't have Atlanta's "solid defense" and the samples aren't comparable. You can look at Matt Schaub's performance as the Falcon's QB and compare Vick to that(which is what I did in this thread) but really there is no way to say for sure how much the game would have changed last Sunday if Vick was healthy.

Personally, I think Vick is one of the most effective QBs in the league despite being a poor passer. That's just an opinion though. Matt Schaub is probably a better passing QB than Michael Vick, but he's not even close to the same running threat. But then again, no other QB in the history of the NFL is as big of a running threat as Michael Vick. I know I'm playing captain obvious here, but some people fail to factor that into their evaluation of Michael Vick as an NFL QB, especially in fantasy circles where stats can play a huge role in how people judge a player.

Matt Schaub-

-18/34, 298 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT
-20+ fantasy points





-52% completion percentage
- Loss to Patriot's
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