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Harrington Toast....Garcia?

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Postby dream_017 » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:41 pm

maddog60 wrote:
dream_017 wrote:Let me know how it is Joeys fault.


Because he finally has all of those weapons. Even with Rogers drug problems, he's got his two top prospect WRs, a veteran TE more than proven at receiving, and a RB who looked great last year.

Now, for a QB not to perform at this point, it's time to let him go. You're telling me they shouldn't change QBs? That they should give Harrington another chance? The only reason he lasted this long is because of the injuries he support suffered. Now they're healthy, there's more support than ever, and he's stilling failing. This year he had no more excuses left.


I am just saying it is not all Joeys fault. Yes, he has played bad, but you can not say he has been give weapons, did you see the WRs I listed and the number of games played by the top prospect WRs. Actually I am finally giving in and want to see him benched so that everyine can see it is not the QBs fault. Taking a 5 step drop, turning around and seeing 2 defensive linemen in you face is not enough time to throw. ANy QB will not have any more sucess than Joey did. There are many more issue than just him, like CBM mentioned. The o-line is a huge problem, which goes into the running game. Not to mention Mooch's horrid WCO.

EDIT: BTW the weapons he had Sunday were M Williams(5th NFL game after being out of football for a year), K Johnson, Scotty Vines(who????), a guy from Saginaw Valley State.
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Postby MiniDitkas » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Harrington is a bum. I remember how awesome he was in college and thinking he should have been taken #1 overall instead of carr. Boy was I wrong. Detroit has a lot of problems, dumping harrington should be their first move.
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Postby The_Captain » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:20 pm

I think the buck stops at Mooch for he is the head coach. If as a head coarch you aren't able to get that much talent to work as a cohesive unit, then there is something wrong with the coaching line.

Yes, Joey is a baaaad QB and has not made the most of the cast assembled around him but Mooch is ultimately responsible for getting his team to play each week. If Joey isn't working, yank his sorry ass, bench him and find someone who will play. Same with anyone else. No this is not all Joey's fault, the O-line bears some of it, the inexperienced WR's bear some of it, etc. but ultimately, Mooch needs to bear the Lions cross. Maybe Millen too.
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Postby moochman » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:53 pm

I agree, Mariucci is the root of the problem, or co-root with Millen. The players they have assembled are ill suited for the type of O that Mariucci wants to run.

I am not a fan of Joey, in fact I have been hard on this guy with each frustrating outing he has had. But I look at it now and think that the problem with him has been his coaching. The QB gurus of Mornhenweg and Mariucci apparently can only create a QB when his name is Bret. I honestly think that Mariucci has ruined any chance of Harrington becomming a competent QB. He looks more indecisive now then he did when he first came into the league. And that can only be coaching.
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Postby ngub12 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:25 am

maddog60 wrote:Since drafting him, this organization has done everything to give Joey Harrington as much an opportunity for success.

2003 - they draft highly touted Charles Rogers with a top 1st round pick.
2004 - they spend their first two draft picks on another WR and a RB. They sign ex-Patriot lineman Woody.
2005 - They draft yet another highly touted WR with another top 10 overall pick. They sign former Indy starters Demulling and Pollard.

In three years, two solid offensive lineman signings, 3 early 1st round WRs, and a top notch RB prospect. If Harrington can't show significant progress with all of that support, he's got to go. Who can they turn to, I don't know. I don't think a rookie would be the best, because it'd virtually be starting over, but the market on solid veteran QBs is at negative depth right now.


i have a problem with a few of the things in which you are saying. particularly the WR argument. you have to remember that just because a wr is highly touted out of college does not make him a sure fire nfl star. we forget this for many reasons, mainly becuase joey's inability to produce. did you ever think it was rogers fault? that he could be a potential bust in himself? he has been ineffective and injury prone. similar situation with mike williams, he was a year out of football prior to august. this guy has as many q marks around him as any (is he too big, slow, can he rebound from not playing a year). you certainily cant label him an nfl star at this point. roy williams is the only one who is "proven" and i still have a hard time using that term to describe.

my point is you cant say that they have 3 stud recievers at this point. you also cant say they have a good oline. i see the detroit situation to be similar to the situation in houston. carr cant produce with one good reciever becuase of a bad oline/horrible coaching.
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Postby maddog60 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:01 am

ngub12 wrote:my point is you cant say that they have 3 stud recievers at this point. you also cant say they have a good oline. i see the detroit situation to be similar to the situation in houston. carr cant produce with one good reciever becuase of a bad oline/horrible coaching.


I never claimed any of these guys were studs. The point is that there are no more excuses for Joey Harrington. Since he's been there, they've done nothing but provide him with help at the expense of bulking up on defensive signings and prospects (unlike the David Carr situation, where they got him a WR a RB, and called it a day).

The excuses have always been, that his weapons were injured, or that he was developing, but its his 4th year, his weapons are healthy, and he's still not leading this team anywhere.

Also, I don't see how this is like Houston. Houston has not given Carr support. 2 draft picks, a WR and RB, that's it. They've known about the bad blocking for 3 years, but didn't sign anybody near the same calibur as either Woody or DeMulling. They didnt try to acquire a TE, any second option to draw the coverage off of Andre Johnson and let this offense have the capability to attack a defense. Detroit has done everything possible to help Joey Harrington evolve as a QB, and Houston has thrown their QB to the wolves. That's a bit different, though each situation will probably end in the premature end of each players starting QB career.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:04 am

I agree and disagree with your argument maddog. I agree that Millen has tried to surround Joey with playmakers - no doubt. The part I disagree with is that they did that at the expense of the defense. Just because the Lions didnt use a 1st rd pick on defense doesnt mean they ignored it. The majority of picks after the 1st rd the last few yrs have been defensive picks (Baily, Lehman, Wilson, etc...), plus the FA signings like Wilkinson, Bly, Bryant, Kennedy, and McQuarters have transformed one of the weakest secondaries into a formidable unit.

Point is, its a common misconception that people see the first rd draft picks as being offensive so they assume the other side of the ball has been ignored. To the contrary, one could argue that the Lions have done more in the last few years to their defense than they have to their offense.
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Postby dream_017 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:22 am

maddog60 wrote:The excuses have always been, that his weapons were injured, or that he was developing, but its his 4th year, his weapons are healthy, and he's still not leading this team anywhere.


They are???? Somehow I didn't see Charles or Roy on the field Sunday. Maybe I missed them.

How many games have they had at least 2 of the 'weapons' on the field at the same time. Very, very few. I agree Joey is not the greatest thing since sliced bread but I don't understand how people can say he has all this talent. Since you think the WRs that I mentioned earlier should make Joey a great QB, let me list the RBs he had: James Stewart, Aveion Cason, Shawn Bryson, Olandis Gary, Artose Pinner and Kevin Jones.
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Postby skibrett15 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:09 am

Nothing has gone right this year for the Lions. The Playcalling is pretty atrocious. They seem like they are playing for a field goal half the time. You can't incomplete a pass on first down, run for 3 yards on second and attempt to convert long third downs drive after drive. I think that DET should be using Marcus Pollard more than any other receiver on the team and should be featuring Kevin Jones in their offense. He is probably their best receiving threat in my opinion. Charles Rogers doesn't look good, and Roy Williams might be good, but he has too much pressure on him and is now hurt.

Maybe with corey slessinger (sp?) they can run it better, but I think it has to start with playcalling that fits the personnel. The bright spot on this team is probably the Defense and maybe special teams.

Garcia isn't going to change the playcalling, so I don't think he'll be any better than joey.
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Postby moochman » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:15 pm

skibrett15 wrote:Garcia isn't going to change the playcalling, so I don't think he'll be any better than joey.


I disagree. Garcia, the one Mariucci remembers, will change the playcalling. He has a much better grasp on Mariucci's offense and so they will stop running the vanilla O that they been serving up to date. He also can read the D better and call plays to counter what's being shown. Joey hasn't been taught by the QB guru how to run the WCO or effectively read Ds. Some guru, eh?

Bottom line is that Garcia should run the WCO better....now, if he only had an arm strong enough to throw the dang ball.
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