This is why nobody trades in my league...

[Chocolate Thunder]

The discussion of Gates now for LT later and similar trades is collusion in my eyes.

Regarding the initial trade offer in this thread... a 2nd rounder for Gates (which is really a 4th rounder in your league because of 2 keepers):

I'm not sure about your league scoring rules, but in both of my leagues (14 and 10 teams), Gates and Gonzo went in the 3rd round which in my eyes, would make your initial offer a little weak, especially since Gates is living up to his hype.

[Plindsey88]

For the record, in 2004, more Antonio Gates owners won fantasy Superbowls than LT owners....

[skibrett15]

consider where each was picked and i think you'll have your reasoning. Antonio Gates provided much more value for his draft pos than LT. Doesn't make hm a better player/fantasy player.

[TheRawDAWG]

THAT'S COLLUSION!!! I couldn't have explained the trade any better myself. Thats shuffling players through 2 rosters in different years. It's crazy to not see that.

The trade is essentially LT for Gates...But owner B is allowing him to use LT for the remainder of the season so he can win a championship. THAT'S collusion.

how would feel if the LT owner was out of it. and 'rented' LT out to another owner for a 3rd round draft pick next year. But the deal hindered on him trading LT back to him at the end of the year for a 5th round pick. Thats renting out players and it's collusion.

The main thing preventing this from being collusion is that our leagues prohibit teams from trading a player back to the other team for one calendar year. So if I trade you LT for Gates today, I can't trade Gates back to you until 11/2/06. The only way you can have Gates back on your roster prior to 11/2/06 is if I cut him and you pick him up off the free agent list. The odds of that happening are slim and none. The other key is that I have to give fair value for whoever I get, so a trade of LT for Gates straight up isn't going to happen. The owner trading Gates is going to have to give up draft picks (plural) for a guy like LT.

We're not rookies - we've been doing trades like this for 17 years. There has never been an allegation of collusion in our league.

I never said you were rookies. I just said this trade would be considered colusion in my league. That's all. And i was trying to get some feed back from other to see if they felt the same way about these types of trades. It's happened in your league for 17 years because no one in your league has ever questioned it. If i was a new guy entering your league this year and this trade came up i would be strongly against it. Thats all i'm saying.

[ampant]

THAT'S COLLUSION!!! I couldn't have explained the trade any better myself. Thats shuffling players through 2 rosters in different years. It's crazy to not see that.

I don't agree. It happens all the time in real life. It's called "rebuilding." If your team sucks this year, and you have Gates, there is nothing wrong with trading him for a draft pick for next year. ESPECIALLY if you put him on the block and offer him to everybody. Each team has to decide how much they are willing to sacrifice for him, and it's not 2 teams colluding in secret if he goes to the highest bidder. In the NFL, you can trade 1 player for another + a draft pick before the deadline. So why can't you do that in FF?

[knapplc]

I don't agree. It happens all the time in real life. It's called "rebuilding." If your team sucks this year, and you have Gates, there is nothing wrong with trading him for a draft pick for next year. ESPECIALLY if you put him on the block and offer him to everybody. Each team has to decide how much they are willing to sacrifice for him, and it's not 2 teams colluding in secret if he goes to the highest bidder. In the NFL, you can trade 1 player for another + a draft pick before the deadline. So why can't you do that in FF?

Exactly. In baseball trades involving "player(s) to be named later" are very common.

I have no idea why Dawg thinks a trade where all details are made public, all owners have an opportunity to "bid" on the player, all trades are voted on prior to approval, and all trades are for equal value (within reason) could be collusion. I think the hangup he has is that "equal value" isn't always attained in the trade until the beginning of the next season. But like in the examples given from major league sports by myself and others, these are very common kinds of trades.

[Gorillaz2]

I don't agree. It happens all the time in real life. It's called "rebuilding." If your team sucks this year, and you have Gates, there is nothing wrong with trading him for a draft pick for next year. ESPECIALLY if you put him on the block and offer him to everybody. Each team has to decide how much they are willing to sacrifice for him, and it's not 2 teams colluding in secret if he goes to the highest bidder. In the NFL, you can trade 1 player for another + a draft pick before the deadline. So why can't you do that in FF?

Exactly. In baseball trades involving "player(s) to be named later" are very common.

I have no idea why Dawg thinks a trade where all details are made public, all owners have an opportunity to "bid" on the player, all trades are voted on prior to approval, and all trades are for equal value (within reason) could be collusion. I think the hangup he has is that "equal value" isn't always attained in the trade until the beginning of the next season. But like in the examples given from major league sports by myself and others, these are very common kinds of trades.

I don't think he grasps the multiple seasons part of it. Which is where it differs alot from single season leagues. In a single season league, if you help someone else win, it's collusion. But when it spans multiple seasons, helping someone else win, can help yourself win later. Which is where it changes.

[Azrael]

For the record, in 2004, more Antonio Gates owners won fantasy Superbowls than LT owners....

That's because Gates was a very late pick or a WW pickup in 2004.

But some people are real idiots when it comes to trading. Half my league wanted to veto this trade I made with another player because they thought I was "ripping the guy off". Whether he's getting ripped off or not is a whole other subject but here was the trade.

I got:

Shaun Alexander
Muhammad (since dropped)
Drew Bennett (hurt since trade)
Foster

I gave:

T. Jones (8th in fantasy scoring for RBs)
M. Anderson (13th in scoring for RBs)
Galloway (5th in scoring for WRs)
Fitzgerald (7th in scoring for WRs)

I gave up 4 guys that will start for any team in the league for basically Alexander. Looking back I may have gotten screwed but all they wanted to do was focus on my addition of Alexander to my starting lineup of McNabb, Portis, Jordan, Ward, and Shockey.

[TheRawDAWG]

I don't agree. It happens all the time in real life. It's called "rebuilding." If your team sucks this year, and you have Gates, there is nothing wrong with trading him for a draft pick for next year. ESPECIALLY if you put him on the block and offer him to everybody. Each team has to decide how much they are willing to sacrifice for him, and it's not 2 teams colluding in secret if he goes to the highest bidder. In the NFL, you can trade 1 player for another + a draft pick before the deadline. So why can't you do that in FF?

Exactly. In baseball trades involving "player(s) to be named later" are very common.

I have no idea why Dawg thinks a trade where all details are made public, all owners have an opportunity to "bid" on the player, all trades are voted on prior to approval, and all trades are for equal value (within reason) could be collusion. I think the hangup he has is that "equal value" isn't always attained in the trade until the beginning of the next season. But like in the examples given from major league sports by myself and others, these are very common kinds of trades.

I don't think he grasps the multiple seasons part of it. Which is where it differs alot from single season leagues. In a single season league, if you help someone else win, it's collusion. But when it spans multiple seasons, helping someone else win, can help yourself win later. Which is where it changes.

I'm VERY familiar with multiple season leagues. I RUN a keeper league with 3 keepers and a 4 man rookie roster. I know all about rebuilding for next year.

To Gorillaz, trading for draft picks is totally different then 'renting' a player for this year and giving him to a team next year.

A trade like Gates for LJ, would be what I would consider a rebuilding move. A trade for LT where you don't have to give the guy LT till next year is collusion. Just because it's out in the open and everyone in your league agrees doesn't make it not collusion. It's great that your league likes to do these trades...but I'm betting there are more leagues out there that would frown upon such trades.