The only game that matters this coming week...

[sharptongued1]

I guess the bigger picture is, and I think could start a nice discussion, is that if there was a playoff system (presumably eight teams), would you then take the top eight teams, or would teams like Notre Dame be given exceptions for that too? I'm not trying to bait here, just seeing where some of you come down on this.

[Plindsey88]

I guess the bigger picture is, and I think could start a nice discussion, is that if there was a playoff system (presumably eight teams), would you then take the top eight teams, or would teams like Notre Dame be given exceptions for that too? I'm not trying to bait here, just seeing where some of you come down on this.

The only truly fair way to do it would be to scrap the subjective portions of the BCS poll... That is to say, you'd have to remove all consideration for the other polls written by sports writers, coaches, etc, and base the polls solely on computer generated models...

IF you did that, then I think it would be fair to include only the top 8 teams...

But your computer models would have to be based solely on this year's stats, and take things like margin of victory (or loss) against ranked teams into account... And it's hard to generate a computer model that factors everything into consideration that needs to be factored into consideration.... How does a computer model account for a freak lucky fumble at the the end of the Notre Dame / USC game? Or a bobbled snap on a field goal attempt in the FSU / Miami game?

[HskrPwr13]

One point that wasnt brought up about ND hating is the fact that in essence, they are being given a BCS birth for being in the top12. No other team has that going for them, nor does any other program get their own non-ppv national network. By having their own network, there is a built in bias with the media that supposedly America would prefer to seem them than any other school, which then makes the sponsors buy into it. I think college football fans would just like to see the best game instead of anyone v ND because its ND. For me its not so much whether ND is better than TeamB or not, its the fact that as long as they put out a pretty good team, they're guaranteed a spot in the BCS, where as everyone else must win a conference or its a "who knows?" scenario. Does ND deserve a bid? I would say no more or less than the teams surrounding them in the rankings. Its just that with all things being equal, ND will always get the nod from the media (not the fans), and that is what makes it unfair and causes the ND hating.

I'm not sure your assessment of a lack of fan-support for Notre Dame is accurate... I submit that Notre Dame probably has the largest fan base of any single football program in the country... There is also something to be said for being the very first college football powerhouse of all time... To a certain extent, you could argue that college football would not be what it is today were it not for the Notre Dame football program....

I'll agree in part. If you add the casual fan to the mix when talking about biggest fan base, then yes, and IMO due to the media coverage/hype, ND probably has the biggest base. In terms of the die-hards though, I would disagree. Of course, with any major sport, the TV/sponsors dont care about the people that religeously watch their telecasts, their always trying to hook a different fish, i.e. the casual fan.

Also, about ND being the first powerehouse/"colleg football would not be what it is today", have to wholely disagree. Nebraska was as much of a powerhouse as ND pre 1920, and twice beat NDs Red Grange teams. Michigan was very much a power back then also, among others. Actually a lot of people were racist against ND teams prior to the '50s, "shanty irish", etc. That the causal fan can identify with the fact that they're Irish, Catholic, or "its the only team I know" due to over-exposure, is whats made them seem like they've always been the greatest and most adored team ever. Perception means everything which is why the media is so in love with them.

[Atog]

I'm certainly wearing Maize and Blue-tinted glasses, but Michigan was one of the first, if not the first, College Powerhouse. The "Point a Minute" offense ruled football in the early 1900's.
Michigan had such dominance in the 1900's that after 1902 they stopped doing the Rose Bowl because there was absolutely no competition, and it was restarted 14 years later.

[sharptongued1]

One point that wasnt brought up about ND hating is the fact that in essence, they are being given a BCS birth for being in the top12. No other team has that going for them, nor does any other program get their own non-ppv national network. By having their own network, there is a built in bias with the media that supposedly America would prefer to seem them than any other school, which then makes the sponsors buy into it. I think college football fans would just like to see the best game instead of anyone v ND because its ND. For me its not so much whether ND is better than TeamB or not, its the fact that as long as they put out a pretty good team, they're guaranteed a spot in the BCS, where as everyone else must win a conference or its a "who knows?" scenario. Does ND deserve a bid? I would say no more or less than the teams surrounding them in the rankings. Its just that with all things being equal, ND will always get the nod from the media (not the fans), and that is what makes it unfair and causes the ND hating.

I'm not sure your assessment of a lack of fan-support for Notre Dame is accurate... I submit that Notre Dame probably has the largest fan base of any single football program in the country... There is also something to be said for being the very first college football powerhouse of all time... To a certain extent, you could argue that college football would not be what it is today were it not for the Notre Dame football program....

I'll agree in part. If you add the casual fan to the mix when talking about biggest fan base, then yes, and IMO due to the media coverage/hype, ND probably has the biggest base. In terms of the die-hards though, I would disagree. Of course, with any major sport, the TV/sponsors dont care about the people that religeously watch their telecasts, their always trying to hook a different fish, i.e. the casual fan.

Also, about ND being the first powerehouse/"colleg football would not be what it is today", have to wholely disagree. Nebraska was as much of a powerhouse as ND pre 1920, and twice beat NDs Red Grange teams. Michigan was very much a power back then also, among others. Actually a lot of people were racist against ND teams prior to the '50s, "shanty irish", etc. That the causal fan can identify with the fact that they're Irish, Catholic, or "its the only team I know" due to over-exposure, is whats made them seem like they've always been the greatest and most adored team ever. Perception means everything which is why the media is so in love with them.

In Plindsey88's defense, that's exactly why they're put in major bowls; ratings. Because your casual fanbase is more apt to watch a Notre Dame team over a team like a Va Tech because, quite frankly, name recognition. You can pull in fringe viewers who wouldn't give two craps either way about a college football game but hey, if it involves a Notre Dame, then that's a name that draws interest. Same with the Yankees and baseball, Lakers with the NBA, etc.

[Atog]

One point that wasnt brought up about ND hating is the fact that in essence, they are being given a BCS birth for being in the top12. No other team has that going for them, nor does any other program get their own non-ppv national network. By having their own network, there is a built in bias with the media that supposedly America would prefer to seem them than any other school, which then makes the sponsors buy into it. I think college football fans would just like to see the best game instead of anyone v ND because its ND. For me its not so much whether ND is better than TeamB or not, its the fact that as long as they put out a pretty good team, they're guaranteed a spot in the BCS, where as everyone else must win a conference or its a "who knows?" scenario. Does ND deserve a bid? I would say no more or less than the teams surrounding them in the rankings. Its just that with all things being equal, ND will always get the nod from the media (not the fans), and that is what makes it unfair and causes the ND hating.

I'm not sure your assessment of a lack of fan-support for Notre Dame is accurate... I submit that Notre Dame probably has the largest fan base of any single football program in the country... There is also something to be said for being the very first college football powerhouse of all time... To a certain extent, you could argue that college football would not be what it is today were it not for the Notre Dame football program....

I'll agree in part. If you add the casual fan to the mix when talking about biggest fan base, then yes, and IMO due to the media coverage/hype, ND probably has the biggest base. In terms of the die-hards though, I would disagree. Of course, with any major sport, the TV/sponsors dont care about the people that religeously watch their telecasts, their always trying to hook a different fish, i.e. the casual fan.

Also, about ND being the first powerehouse/"colleg football would not be what it is today", have to wholely disagree. Nebraska was as much of a powerhouse as ND pre 1920, and twice beat NDs Red Grange teams. Michigan was very much a power back then also, among others. Actually a lot of people were racist against ND teams prior to the '50s, "shanty irish", etc. That the causal fan can identify with the fact that they're Irish, Catholic, or "its the only team I know" due to over-exposure, is whats made them seem like they've always been the greatest and most adored team ever. Perception means everything which is why the media is so in love with them.

In Plindsey88's defense, that's exactly why they're put in major bowls; ratings. Because your casual fanbase is more apt to watch a Notre Dame team over a team like a Va Tech because, quite frankly, name recognition. You can pull in fringe viewers who wouldn't give two craps either way about a college football game but hey, if it involves a Notre Dame, then that's a name that draws interest. Same with the Yankees and baseball, Lakers with the NBA, etc.

True. Exactly why people are just realizing that the 6-0 Pistons are good

[HskrPwr13]

One point that wasnt brought up about ND hating is the fact that in essence, they are being given a BCS birth for being in the top12. No other team has that going for them, nor does any other program get their own non-ppv national network. By having their own network, there is a built in bias with the media that supposedly America would prefer to seem them than any other school, which then makes the sponsors buy into it. I think college football fans would just like to see the best game instead of anyone v ND because its ND. For me its not so much whether ND is better than TeamB or not, its the fact that as long as they put out a pretty good team, they're guaranteed a spot in the BCS, where as everyone else must win a conference or its a "who knows?" scenario. Does ND deserve a bid? I would say no more or less than the teams surrounding them in the rankings. Its just that with all things being equal, ND will always get the nod from the media (not the fans), and that is what makes it unfair and causes the ND hating.

I'm not sure your assessment of a lack of fan-support for Notre Dame is accurate... I submit that Notre Dame probably has the largest fan base of any single football program in the country... There is also something to be said for being the very first college football powerhouse of all time... To a certain extent, you could argue that college football would not be what it is today were it not for the Notre Dame football program....

I'll agree in part. If you add the casual fan to the mix when talking about biggest fan base, then yes, and IMO due to the media coverage/hype, ND probably has the biggest base. In terms of the die-hards though, I would disagree. Of course, with any major sport, the TV/sponsors dont care about the people that religeously watch their telecasts, their always trying to hook a different fish, i.e. the casual fan.

Also, about ND being the first powerehouse/"colleg football would not be what it is today", have to wholely disagree. Nebraska was as much of a powerhouse as ND pre 1920, and twice beat NDs Red Grange teams. Michigan was very much a power back then also, among others. Actually a lot of people were racist against ND teams prior to the '50s, "shanty irish", etc. That the causal fan can identify with the fact that they're Irish, Catholic, or "its the only team I know" due to over-exposure, is whats made them seem like they've always been the greatest and most adored team ever. Perception means everything which is why the media is so in love with them.

In Plindsey88's defense, that's exactly why they're put in major bowls; ratings. Because your casual fanbase is more apt to watch a Notre Dame team over a team like a Va Tech because, quite frankly, name recognition. You can pull in fringe viewers who wouldn't give two craps either way about a college football game but hey, if it involves a Notre Dame, then that's a name that draws interest. Same with the Yankees and baseball, Lakers with the NBA, etc.

Which is why "real" fans hate on ND even in situations where maybe it isnt warranted. They seem to always get their way even if maybe they shouldnt.

[Plindsey88]

Which is why "real" fans hate on ND even in situations where maybe it isnt warranted. They seem to always get their way even if maybe they shouldnt.

Folks in Nebraska will always tout Nebraska as being the pre-eminent old-school program.... Folks in Michigan will always tout Michigan as being the pre-eminent old-school program....

But there is no denying the fact that Notre Dame has become almost synonymous with college football in popular American culture... They have fans in every major market... They have fans that live thousands of miles from South Bend, and have no ties to the area or to the University... When most Americans think of the roots of college football, they think of the Notre Dame football program... You can go into any sports bar on any given Saturday in any city in America and find at least one guy wearing a Notre Dame hat or sweatshirt....

Sure, teams like Nebraska had a hard core fan base in the 1920's - IN NEBRASKA.... And, sure, teams like Michigan had a hard core fan base in the 1920's - IN MICHIGAN... And those fans were fans of the sport, alumni of the school, or current students...

Notre Dame is a different ball game altogether... People became college football fans BECAUSE of Notre Dame... People who didn't give a hoot for the sport at all, were drawn to it BECAUSE of Notre Dame... And not just fans in the region... Fans all over the country.... The Notre Dame football program made college football the American institution that it is today.... Period.... Without Notre Dame, and the fans they brought to the game, there is every possibility that college football would not be any more popular today than it was in the 1930's... And that's a fact... Without Notre Dame, college football would be no more popular than college baseball... And I will even go so far as to say that the NFL would not be anywhere near as popular as it is without the popularity of the college game, and therefore the NFL owes a debt of gratitude to the Irish, as well... The entire sport is more popular because of the fan base cultivated by the Irish in the first half of the 20th century.... Go overseas sometime, and ask a foreigner to name an American College Football program, and I guarantee you 9 times out of 10, they'll say Notre Dame... You cannot deny the impact the program has had on the sport....

And for THAT reason, if for no other, the Irish deserve a small amount of extra consideration if they qualify for a bowl game... To say nothing of the extra dollars they bring to any bowl game in which they participate....

Personally, I'm not a Notre Dame fan... But I can totally see why if you have a program like Ohio State that's 9-2 and a program like Notre Dame that's 9-2, and you are the commissioner of a bowl game, why you would opt to choose Notre Dame to play in your game... I mean, sure, the people in Ohio will be pissed, but go into a sports bar in New York, Boston, Washington, Atlanta, Miami, Houston, Dallas, Los Angelas, etc... etc... and count how many Ohio State fans you find versus how many Notre Dame fans you find... I guarantee you the fans of the Irish outnumber the fans of Ohio State (or any other college team) 2-to-1....

[HskrPwr13]

Bottom line for me, Plindsey is that I dont disagree with you that there are more ND fans, casual or otherwise, than any other school and hence why the bowls choose them over other schools. I get that. But the real question is, Why? I just think if the media wanted to put their weight behind a Nebraska or Michingan, since I used them as examples, like they've done for ND over the years, that school, over time, would take ND's place as the premier college football team. No one likes to admit to the amount of power the media has over our lives, or at least the lives among us, but you cant deny it. IMO where we are today in terms of ND's status as the premier cf entity is due to the media.

[Plindsey88]

Bottom line for me, Plindsey is that I dont disagree with you that there are more ND fans, casual or otherwise, than any other school and hence why the bowls choose them over other schools. I get that. But the real question is, Why? I just think if the media wanted to put their weight behind a Nebraska or Michingan, since I used them as examples, like they've done for ND over the years, that school, over time, would take ND's place as the premier college football team. No one likes to admit to the amount of power the media has over our lives, or at least the lives among us, but you cant deny it. IMO where we are today in terms of ND's status as the premier cf entity is due to the media.

We could argue about the why's and the how's, but isn't that irrelevant? I mean, at this stage of the game, does it really matter how Notre Dame became the flagship college football program? All that really matters is that they are, and if we're going to give automatic bowl bids away to teams, then there SHOULD be some type of automatic bid conditions for the premier independent school in the country, which is Notre Dame... I'm not suggesting that they should have an automatic bid because of the fact that they are Notre Dame, but if they meet certain criteria, they should be eligible for an automatic bid in the same way that so-called "conference schools" are....

If we really want to start bitching about teams getting automatic bowl bids undeservingly, then let's start the conversation with the fact that the Big East Champion gets an automatic bowl bid, even though the schools that comprise the Big East are complete jokes, with the possible exception of West Virginia, who is mediocre, at best...

But, on a side note, I submit to you that Notre Dame gets the media attention that they do because of the fact that they are the the most revered team in college football, and not the other way around....

If you really want to look at it from a historical perspective, around the turn of the century, you had a HUGE influx of Irish Americans into this country who were discriminated against for, amoung other reasons, the fact that they were Catholic, and when a football team from an Irish Catholic School started beating the best football programs in the country, and making runs at championships, it inspired an underclass of sports-loving immigrants who had little else in their lives to make them feel proud. Crap jobs, crap housing, crap wages - the Irish had NOTHING going for them in the early 20th century... But they were a people who loved sport, and when Irish American athletes began to have success, nobody was more fanatical about supporting their team than the Irish underclass... And the athletes were elevated to legendary status - they embodied the hopes and dreams of an entire generation of impoverished immigrants... And those immigrants raised their children to admire those athletes, and those programs, and their children raised their own children to do the same... Hollywood and other media sources latched onto the fighting Irish because of their legendary status amoung the common man, and not the other way around.... No one sold the factory workers in Boston on the fact that they should like Notre Dame... The factory workers in Boston sold Hollywood and other media outlets on the fact that Notre Dame was a school worth covering...