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Caddy Rookie of the Year

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Postby Sixxgunn » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:57 am

VaderFin wrote:If Orton is so great that must make Rex Grossman even greater cause Orton is riding the pine in the playoffs. :-?


Yeah, because Rex is a rookie. Make a point that matters.

I have at least made a decent argument for, no one has made one against. No one has disputed my points, and just because you have a team doesn't mean you aren't deserving. Peyton Manning sucks because he has Edge, Harrison, Wayne and so on. Joe Montana is a chump because he had Rice, Riggins and Clark. That's what teams do.
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Postby BrutallyHuge » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:04 am

Sixxgunn wrote:Yeah, because Rex is a rookie. Make a point that matters.

I have at least made a decent argument for, no one has made one against. No one has disputed my points, and just because you have a team doesn't mean you aren't deserving. Peyton Manning sucks because he has Edge, Harrison, Wayne and so on. Joe Montana is a chump because he had Rice, Riggins and Clark. That's what teams do.


That could possible the worst argument I've seen in the Cafe. Definitely Top 5. I haven't done the appropriate legwork to legitimately rank it.

Comparing Peyton Manning and Joe Montana to Kyle Orton was the clincher.
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Postby onnestabe » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:04 am

Sixx, your main argument is that Orton was the QB of a team that did something it was not supposed to do...

In 2004, Chicago and Tampa had identical 5-11 records. In 2005, Chicago and Tampa had identical 11-5 records.

Tampa plays in the ultra-competitive NFC South (two playoff teams, three if Atlanta doesn't choke down the stretch). Chicago plays in the not-so-competitive NFC North.

Orton was asked to not lose games. Caddy was asked to be the centerpiece of the offense.

I will contend that Tampa Bay's result was just as unexpected as Chicago's, and that Caddy played a bigger role in his team's victories than did Orton. Don't try to argue that Orton was more important to his team's success than Caddy, because the proof simply isn't there.

As far as consideration, there's no way to know how much consideration he got, because all we see are the final votes. The fact is, he could have been second place in every voter's mind, but the end decision rested with Caddy for all those voters, as it should. We cannot see how each voter rank the rookies in their voting, so we cannot see who got more "second place votes". All we can see is that almost everyone thinks Caddy is the ROY, and there are was a Dolphins fan, a Pats fan, and a Steeler fan that had ballots, too ;-D .
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Postby Sixxgunn » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:10 am

BrutallyHuge wrote:
Sixxgunn wrote:Yeah, because Rex is a rookie. Make a point that matters.

I have at least made a decent argument for, no one has made one against. No one has disputed my points, and just because you have a team doesn't mean you aren't deserving. Peyton Manning sucks because he has Edge, Harrison, Wayne and so on. Joe Montana is a chump because he had Rice, Riggins and Clark. That's what teams do.


That could possible the worst argument I've seen in the Cafe. Definitely Top 5. I haven't done the appropriate legwork to legitimately rank it.

Comparing Peyton Manning and Joe Montana to Kyle Orton was the clincher.


Of course you would take it that route. Take a point being made, not a comparison, and use it out of context.
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Postby RyanTB » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:15 pm

Sixxgunn wrote:
RyanTB wrote:
Sixxgunn wrote:How many other rookie QB's accomplished what he did?


Alot......because he didn't accomplish anything. The Bears D and running game did. Ben Roethlisberger was a good rookie QB that comes to mind. NOT Kyle Orton.


So name the other ones who won as many games as he did. He did what he had to do to make the team win. Isn't that the job of the QB? As for the Dilfer reference, there is a HUGE difference there. Dilfer was an established vet, while Kyle was a ROOKIE. Not too many rookies can come in and handle that kind of pressure and not destroy their team. Let's see who was worse than Kyle Orton this year:

Brett Favre----Future HOFer
Kerry Collins--Stellar offensive players
Michael Vick---League poster child
Drew Brees----no explanation needed
Drew Bledsoe--experienced vet
And most of the other teams in the league as well.

You'll say, all those guys had a better year than Orton and I'll say, show me the wins. Tom Brady was a guy that rarely put up stunning numbers, but he got wins. I can recall a couple of sub-100 yd games from Brady that they won. That's all that matters. Don't blow this up into a Brady/Orton comparison thing because it isn't. That was just an example of mass thinking. I think what a guy doesn't do is just as important as what a guy does do. And what he didn't do this year was huge. I'm not starting a fight for the sake of argument, I just feel that it was a gross error in judgement not to at least have gotten some consideration (maybe not win it, but consideration), considering the amount of wins generated by a team that was predicted to be 32nd in the NFL, and not expected to get more than 3 wins by many, including myself. I'm off my soapbox.


Kyle Orton did not win those games for the Bears. In fact, he was lucky not to have caused them to lose. We are afterall talking about a QB who had a dismal 59.7 passer rating.
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Postby flotsamnjetsam » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:39 pm

Sixxgunn wrote:
RyanTB wrote:
Sixxgunn wrote:How many other rookie QB's accomplished what he did?


Alot......because he didn't accomplish anything. The Bears D and running game did. Ben Roethlisberger was a good rookie QB that comes to mind. NOT Kyle Orton.


So name the other ones who won as many games as he did. He did what he had to do to make the team win. Isn't that the job of the QB? As for the Dilfer reference, there is a HUGE difference there. Dilfer was an established vet, while Kyle was a ROOKIE. Not too many rookies can come in and handle that kind of pressure and not destroy their team. Let's see who was worse than Kyle Orton this year:

Brett Favre----Future HOFer
Kerry Collins--Stellar offensive players
Michael Vick---League poster child
Drew Brees----no explanation needed
Drew Bledsoe--experienced vet
And most of the other teams in the league as well.

You'll say, all those guys had a better year than Orton and I'll say, show me the wins. Tom Brady was a guy that rarely put up stunning numbers, but he got wins. I can recall a couple of sub-100 yd games from Brady that they won. That's all that matters. Don't blow this up into a Brady/Orton comparison thing because it isn't. That was just an example of mass thinking. I think what a guy doesn't do is just as important as what a guy does do. And what he didn't do this year was huge. I'm not starting a fight for the sake of argument, I just feel that it was a gross error in judgement not to at least have gotten some consideration (maybe not win it, but consideration), considering the amount of wins generated by a team that was predicted to be 32nd in the NFL, and not expected to get more than 3 wins by many, including myself. I'm off my soapbox.


ROY goes to an individual player, not a team. Winning games has nothing to do with ROY. ROY goes to the most talented rookie player. You think you are making great points but you're not. Just because Chicago as a team won more games than most of the teams in the league doesn't mean that each individual player on Chicago had a better year than each individual player on those other teams. That's just a stupid argument.

Using that argument, I guess Muhsin Muhammad had a better season than Santana Moss, Larry Fitzgerald, & Anquan Boldin. I guess T. Jones had a better season than Tiki Barber & Larry Johnson. After all, Muhammad's team won more games than Washington, Arizona, NYG, & KC.

Like BH said, this is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen.

If Orton was such a great rookie: 1. He wouldn't have gotten benched when Grossman got healthy. & 2. He would have gotten at least 1 vote from the panel who voted for the ROY.
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Postby Sixxgunn » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:31 pm

onnestabe wrote:Sixx, your main argument is that Orton was the QB of a team that did something it was not supposed to do...

In 2004, Chicago and Tampa had identical 5-11 records. In 2005, Chicago and Tampa had identical 11-5 records.

Tampa plays in the ultra-competitive NFC South (two playoff teams, three if Atlanta doesn't choke down the stretch). Chicago plays in the not-so-competitive NFC North.

Orton was asked to not lose games. Caddy was asked to be the centerpiece of the offense.

I will contend that Tampa Bay's result was just as unexpected as Chicago's, and that Caddy played a bigger role in his team's victories than did Orton. Don't try to argue that Orton was more important to his team's success than Caddy, because the proof simply isn't there.

As far as consideration, there's no way to know how much consideration he got, because all we see are the final votes. The fact is, he could have been second place in every voter's mind, but the end decision rested with Caddy for all those voters, as it should. We cannot see how each voter rank the rookies in their voting, so we cannot see who got more "second place votes". All we can see is that almost everyone thinks Caddy is the ROY, and there are was a Dolphins fan, a Pats fan, and a Steeler fan that had ballots, too ;-D .


Finally a well thought out explanation. I can pretty much go for everything that was said here with the exception of importance to their individual teams. I think Kyle first off staying healthy and giving continuity to the team was huge. Look at the previous years with those QBs. With the exception of Cincy, he really didn't make too many mistakes. I think there is no way, no how this team wins as many as they did if Hutchinson is still the man, who is the guy that was supposed to be our starter this year. TB won without Caddy, while he was hurt and in some of his dismal 20 yd games. Pittman and Alstott filled in just fine. But this is really speculative as to who is more important, and you guys are right, he didn't get the votes. I just wanted a good argument, not a bunch of "you're crazy" and "Orton sucks" posts.
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Postby GreatestShowOnEarth » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:34 pm

I get your point, but Caddy was gone due to injury and had a few stinkers himself, and Tampa survived, where as the QB has to run the offense, not just run. Everyone knows it's much easier to run the ball than anything else, so why give it to the guy with the easiest job?


Just wondering did you see the games that Caddy didnt play in? They lost to both the Jets and the Niners without him. Caddy makes the bucs a playoff contender when hes on the field.

Caddy deserved to win this award hands down. He put up impressive stats and was the reason the Bucs are in the playoffs. [/b]
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