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Which player would you take #1?

QB Matt Leinart (USC)
7
10%
QB Vince Young (TEX)
12
17%
RB Reggie Bush (USC)
31
44%
LT D'Brickashaw Ferguson (VIR)
18
25%
Other
3
4%
 
Total votes : 71

Postby mattb47 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:47 am

moochman wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
tcpain wrote:Young is "the man". Did you guys even watch the NC game? That man carried the Horns to victory in 2 straight Rose Bowls breaking records in the process. With his size and mobility, a good NFL QB coach will turn this guy into a M Vick that can pass.

He led the nation in Pass Effinciency this year. And yes, better than Leinart!!


Yes....he was very impressive in the NC game. But I attribute more of that to the idea that USC's defense was simply horrendous. They just couldn't tackle....part of that goes to Young's elusiveness, but most of it goes to the fact that they just weren't very good. In fact, Young didn't play against very many good defenses at all this year seeing as how the Big 12 had a very down year.

I just think that Young will get to the pros and he's going to learn the hard way that he can't do all that running all over the place all the time. Look at how Vick has struggled when teams finally figured out how to contain him, they'll do the same for Young. If I took one player to start my team, it would be the one with the most talent of any player I've seen come out of college in quite a while. In the championship game he had a poor game in most people's eyes and still had 275 total yards and 1 TD. Now if that's a bad game, it makes you wonder a bit.....


I don't think it is fair to compare VY to Vick. Young is a lot bigger and a much more accomplished passer at this stage of his career. He is a unique player that could be a game breaker. Bush may be too, but he doesn't run a pro-style anymore than VY did. So he isn't without questions.


I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.
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Postby ironcityboy88 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:19 am

If I was GM of an expansion team, I would have to D'Brickashaw. On a new team, you need a solid line to give your QB and RB solid pass protection/run blocking. Look what happened in Houston...they knew what they needed to do, they went out and got one of the top OL in the game (T.Boselli); unfortunately, he never could get on the field because of injuries. Now, D.Carr is so "shell shocked" from taking all those sacks, he will never be an efficient QB with them, and he was a solid QB to begin with! Get the best OL on the board and go out on the free agent market and get a solid QB with EXPERIENCE to start. Also, since I'm an expansion team, I'm going to get some other team's leftover RB (that the team probably can't afford anymore (hhmm, I over pay for an Edgerrin James or Shaun Alexander). A good team starts with the line.
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Postby moochman » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:47 am

mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


You can use the "when he does something in the NFL" agruement for any draft pick, Bush included. My point is that Vick is smaller, faster, more elusive, but lacked accuracy coming out of college. He, in a sense, was a runner who player QB. VY is a bigger physical specimen who though lacking Vick's amazing arm strength, is a much more credible passer than Mr. Mexico. He is a QB who can run. To compare the 2 isn't fair to either.

Stats certainly can be misleading. Look at the numbers that Leinart put up, or even Bush. How much of what was done was as a product of an unusually talented offense and how much is a result of individual talent? We won't know until they do something in the NFL. But I would argue that USC had much more offensive talent then Texas did, and the NFL draft will bear that out. And as for VY padding his completion % by hitting wide open receivers, that is a lot more than can be said of Vick.
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Postby mattb47 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:47 pm

moochman wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


You can use the "when he does something in the NFL" agruement for any draft pick, Bush included. My point is that Vick is smaller, faster, more elusive, but lacked accuracy coming out of college. He, in a sense, was a runner who player QB. VY is a bigger physical specimen who though lacking Vick's amazing arm strength, is a much more credible passer than Mr. Mexico. He is a QB who can run. To compare the 2 isn't fair to either.

Stats certainly can be misleading. Look at the numbers that Leinart put up, or even Bush. How much of what was done was as a product of an unusually talented offense and how much is a result of individual talent? We won't know until they do something in the NFL. But I would argue that USC had much more offensive talent then Texas did, and the NFL draft will bear that out. And as for VY padding his completion % by hitting wide open receivers, that is a lot more than can be said of Vick.


Take your boy Young if you will....and I hope Houston does too because it would be a huge mistake for them. Young didn't do anything to impress me so much that I think he deserves as much hype as he is getting. I'm still saying that his great NC performance was due to the lack of an opposing defense....the USC defense simply didn't exist this year. You go from that kind of a defense to the pros where you have the best of the best of college defensive players and I think Young will always be a mediocre QB if you take away his ability to run effectively. He'll learn his lesson after a few good hits and I don't think he's a good enough passer to make it as a pocket passer. Throw out all the stats you want at me, but after I watched him play this season, I simply was not impressed as much as many of you. I'm not necessarily saying that he's the exact same player as Vick...I'm saying he won't turn out to be any better of a QB in the NFL than Vick.
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Postby maddog60 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:46 pm

mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


So you're faulting the man for making a good decision by using his skills to get a few yards instead of chancing a turnover? Yes, defenses will get tougher at the NFL level, but good decision making is probably the most important attribute of a QB.

Seriously, if we're going to compare Young to any NFL QB, it should be Culpepper or McNabb. He's big like they are, combines scrambling and throwing, and even his elusiveness is similar to them in how they shed tacklers, not run around them like Vick.
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Postby biju » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:59 pm

maddog60 wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


So you're faulting the man for making a good decision by using his skills to get a few yards instead of chancing a turnover? Yes, defenses will get tougher at the NFL level, but good decision making is probably the most important attribute of a QB.

Seriously, if we're going to compare Young to any NFL QB, it should be Culpepper or McNabb. He's big like they are, combines scrambling and throwing, and even his elusiveness is similar to them in how they shed tacklers, not run around them like Vick.


I think what he's saying is that while he might be making the right decision it's just not going to work in the NFL which *may* lead to him having to learn to throw the ball away instead of taking off. Since probably the most difficult thing to do in any competition is to accept defeat (on a play) he might try to force the ball which he's unaccustomed to. Then the picks will roll in.

:-o
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Postby mattb47 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:00 pm

maddog60 wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


So you're faulting the man for making a good decision by using his skills to get a few yards instead of chancing a turnover? Yes, defenses will get tougher at the NFL level, but good decision making is probably the most important attribute of a QB.

Seriously, if we're going to compare Young to any NFL QB, it should be Culpepper or McNabb. He's big like they are, combines scrambling and throwing, and even his elusiveness is similar to them in how they shed tacklers, not run around them like Vick.


No....not faulting him for getting a few yards instead of chancing a turnover. I just question his ability to make difficult passes...and in the NFL difficult passes are more frequent than easy wide open looks. I think that his decisions to run may not be looked at as great decision making the more he plays in the NFL and takes a lot of hits. He won't get nearly as many yards as he was able to do in college and so his decisions won't look as great as they do now.

I don't think it's fair to McNabb or C-Pepp to include this prospect with them just like you don't feel it's fair to compare Young to Vick. If anything will be similar to McNabb and C-Pepp about Young it will be his tendancy to get injured. I think he will take a lot of hits, and if he doesn't it's because he's not doing what he does best...if he stops doing what he does best he no longer has an advantage....you see where this is going? To avoid injury he will have to change his style of game and be less effective, to be more effective he will have to chance injury a lot more. I personally would take a solid pocket passer QB such as Palmer, Brady, or Manning over a McNabb or Culpepper any day.
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Postby mattb47 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:02 pm

biju wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I'll stop comparing him to Vick when he actually does something in the NFL. I don't think he'll be much better in the NFL than Vick is so I don't mind comparing the two right now. He's going to realize real quick that he can't do a majority of the things he did in college in the pros. I'm also not convinced that Young is as great of a passer as many people think he is, and the stats say he is. Stats can be misleading. If he doesn't find someone pretty wide open he did tend to run rather than make a difficult pass....this won't be as much of an option in the pros and people won't be as open as they were in the USC game.


So you're faulting the man for making a good decision by using his skills to get a few yards instead of chancing a turnover? Yes, defenses will get tougher at the NFL level, but good decision making is probably the most important attribute of a QB.

Seriously, if we're going to compare Young to any NFL QB, it should be Culpepper or McNabb. He's big like they are, combines scrambling and throwing, and even his elusiveness is similar to them in how they shed tacklers, not run around them like Vick.


I think what he's saying is that while he might be making the right decision it's just not going to work in the NFL which *may* lead to him having to learn to throw the ball away instead of taking off. Since probably the most difficult thing to do in any competition is to accept defeat (on a play) he might try to force the ball which he's unaccustomed to. Then the picks will roll in.

:-o


Thank you....yes that is part of what I was saying. He just hasn't had to make decisions as quickly as he will in the pros. And there isn't much room for error in the pro passing game.
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Postby Crimedogg32 » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:04 pm

I think that if you are an expansion team you cant use your first pick ever on an OL no matter how good he may be. (Though if I was the Texans I would definatly draft him)

I also dont think it is best idea to draft a QB as an expansion team see (Browns-Couch, Texans-Carr) and I am not sold on each of these guys yet especially Leinart who I personally see as the next Ryan Leaf, and Young who is a scrambling QB and you can never tell how they will do in the NFL.

That leaves me to Reggie Bush. I think you have to take him because he seems like the most sure deal and will get your city excited about football with all the hype around him. (Saying that I think he is the worse pick for Texans because I still think DD is good enough to be a top 15 RB in the league)

I also wouldnt throw out building a team around Hawk as it seems most of the good teams in the NFL have star LBs especially MLB
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Postby CC » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:17 pm

Crimedogg32 wrote:I also wouldnt throw out building a team around Hawk as it seems most of the good teams in the NFL have star LBs especially MLB


Hows that working out for the Ravens, Jets, and Packers?
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