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Postby mutantseabass » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:55 pm

Atog wrote:
mutantseabass wrote:
MadScott wrote:
Atog wrote:
MadScott wrote:I seem to remember hearing recently somewhere that the Lions may be strapped with Joey this season simply because of the financials involved in his situation. At any rate, I too really expect the Lions to bring in some vet this offseason to challenge for Joey's job. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Warner's contract set to expire in AZ? I think it was only a one year deal. If so, perhaps he brings him in for the quick fix, if nothing else, until Joey can get up to speed (heaven help him) in that new system.


Word is that it's extremely likely that Warner will be returning to AZ. Green hates McCown, and they need the best QB they can get, regardless of age, to have Boldin and Fitz live up to to their potentials.
I imagine some of that depends on what happens, if anything, with a potential Culpepper trade to AZ though.

I guess there's always Jeff Smoker.



If that happens im done being a Lions fan.


You mean if Smokey started for the Cards? I don't think that'll ever happen.


I thought MS meant Smoker coming to Detroit.
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Postby Kensat30 » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:43 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
merc wrote:CB: that makes alot of sense to me?
So, in the Detroit system, Martz will be limited by Joey H?


I would say thats accurate. When you consider the complexity of Martz' system, it seems that it would take a while for any QB to learn, and as of right now, I dont know of any QBs available that know Martz system that could be brought in to play immediately.

Chances are Martz is going to simplify his schemes considerably in DET regardless of who is under center.

Kensat - you could be right about Martz and Joey - chances are we will bring in a vet to compete with Joey, and regadless of the rumors, Millen isnt going to tell anyone who should play QB - Millen just wants to win too. If Martz feels that the vet gives them the best chance, he certainly isnt going to get a lot of resistance from anyone - its not as if Joey is a fan fav or anything - we just want to win. The counterpoint to that however is that their doesnt seem to be very many QBs available that could step in immediately and beat Joey out of a job.



Martz system is not complicated at all though. "Learning" the system means making multiple reads quickly and deciding where to put the ball. The routes are all numbered 1-9 and each receiver gets a number.

I.E. A 3-WR play could be tagged a 989, where the WR on the left runs 9, next WR runs 8, last WR runs 9. You know that play where Bruce and Holt both run intermediate circle routes, I think I've heard that referred to as a 313 play. Articles are out there that comment on the Martz offense being an offshoot of the Air Coryell (sp?). Martz is a Coryell disciple going all the way back into the mid-80s when he was a high school or college coach in the SD Area.
---

The main reason why I would think that Harrington's job is in jeopardy is both his decision making and downfield accuracy. How many times in the past few seasons have we seen Joey throw to an outlet RB/WR instead of testing the D downfield? A lot of the blame falls on the poor WRs in Detroit, but as a fan you have to realize that the QB needs to take more chances after 3 or 4 years in the NFL. It's not like the guy is gunshy after being sacked 50+ times a year like Ramsey and Carr...

Bottom line, iF you don't have confidence in your reads/WRs you don't throw the ball. But in the Martz offense you just have to trust the calls and your WRs and throw the ball to the right spot. Warner took punishment because he started to think to much and got himself outside the system. Bulger on the other hand trusts the system and can throw it to any WR that lines up on the field and runs the right route.

In regards to Harrington's accuracy, how many times have we seen Joey overthrow the WR or place the ball in the wrong spot downfield the past few seasons? And throughout Harrington's career how many times do we see WRs drop the ball that hits them right in the breadbasket? Seems like the Harrington/WR frequency in Detroit is damaged, and they just don't trust each to make plays. In Martz system there is no trust involved, you throw it to a route and you hit a spot. There is no learning curve in the Martz system, you either have it, or you don't. Just look at the start of Warner/Green/Bulger's careers as the Ram's starter....All instant success stories. Confidence and accuracy are the key components, and Joey seems to lack in those departments.
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Postby MadScott » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:09 am

Kensat30 wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
merc wrote:CB: that makes alot of sense to me?
So, in the Detroit system, Martz will be limited by Joey H?


I would say thats accurate. When you consider the complexity of Martz' system, it seems that it would take a while for any QB to learn, and as of right now, I dont know of any QBs available that know Martz system that could be brought in to play immediately.

Chances are Martz is going to simplify his schemes considerably in DET regardless of who is under center.

Kensat - you could be right about Martz and Joey - chances are we will bring in a vet to compete with Joey, and regadless of the rumors, Millen isnt going to tell anyone who should play QB - Millen just wants to win too. If Martz feels that the vet gives them the best chance, he certainly isnt going to get a lot of resistance from anyone - its not as if Joey is a fan fav or anything - we just want to win. The counterpoint to that however is that their doesnt seem to be very many QBs available that could step in immediately and beat Joey out of a job.



Martz system is not complicated at all though. "Learning" the system means making multiple reads quickly and deciding where to put the ball. The routes are all numbered 1-9 and each receiver gets a number.

I.E. A 3-WR play could be tagged a 989, where the WR on the left runs 9, next WR runs 8, last WR runs 9. You know that play where Bruce and Holt both run intermediate circle routes, I think I've heard that referred to as a 313 play. Articles are out there that comment on the Martz offense being an offshoot of the Air Coryell (sp?). Martz is a Coryell disciple going all the way back into the mid-80s when he was a high school or college coach in the SD Area.
---

The main reason why I would think that Harrington's job is in jeopardy is both his decision making and downfield accuracy. How many times in the past few seasons have we seen Joey throw to an outlet RB/WR instead of testing the D downfield? A lot of the blame falls on the poor WRs in Detroit, but as a fan you have to realize that the QB needs to take more chances after 3 or 4 years in the NFL. It's not like the guy is gunshy after being sacked 50+ times a year like Ramsey and Carr...

Bottom line, iF you don't have confidence in your reads/WRs you don't throw the ball. But in the Martz offense you just have to trust the calls and your WRs and throw the ball to the right spot. Warner took punishment because he started to think to much and got himself outside the system. Bulger on the other hand trusts the system and can throw it to any WR that lines up on the field and runs the right route.

In regards to Harrington's accuracy, how many times have we seen Joey overthrow the WR or place the ball in the wrong spot downfield the past few seasons? And throughout Harrington's career how many times do we see WRs drop the ball that hits them right in the breadbasket? Seems like the Harrington/WR frequency in Detroit is damaged, and they just don't trust each to make plays. In Martz system there is no trust involved, you throw it to a route and you hit a spot. There is no learning curve in the Martz system, you either have it, or you don't. Just look at the start of Warner/Green/Bulger's careers as the Ram's starter....All instant success stories. Confidence and accuracy are the key components, and Joey seems to lack in those departments.
You totally hit the Joey thing on the head. It's the same thing that was brought up last season. Joey's accuracy, bottom line, isn't all that great. His confidence seems pretty well shot as well.

MSB, I meant Smoker to the Lions. :-b
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:45 am

We'll see about Joey - I think he is a better passer than you guys do. Its my opinion that Joey's checkdown issue was something that Mooch coached into him. It should be interesting. I really dont see Joey overthrowing his targets all that often - I see him throwing slightly behind them more often - but I think the big timing issues the WRs have affect that as well - they struggled to get off the line the majority of the yr (a lack of a deep threat added to this). Kensat - the reason Joey didnt test the defense downfield was largly due to the offensive scheme he was in.

I am glad you told me about Martz offense though Kensat - I was under the impression it was complicated. Thanks for making me feel better about it. ;-D
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Postby skibrett15 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:01 am

How is marcus pollard going to factor into this?? The rams have never used a TE effectively in the passing game under Martz. Pollard seemed like Joey's favorite target in a couple of games. Perhaps he gets phased out for a better blocker?
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Postby moochman » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:07 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:We'll see about Joey - I think he is a better passer than you guys do. Its my opinion that Joey's checkdown issue was something that Mooch coached into him. It should be interesting. I really dont see Joey overthrowing his targets all that often - I see him throwing slightly behind them more often - but I think the big timing issues the WRs have affect that as well - they struggled to get off the line the majority of the yr (a lack of a deep threat added to this). Kensat - the reason Joey didnt test the defense downfield was largly due to the offensive scheme he was in.

I am glad you told me about Martz offense though Kensat - I was under the impression it was complicated. Thanks for making me feel better about it. ;-D


It is a little too soon to give up on Bloey..er..Joey. I can't help but wonder if his indecisiveness, inaccuracy, and propensity to check down to RBs is all a result of the tremendous mind fudge that Mornhenweg & Mariucci laid on him. They beat into his head that you can't take sacks or throw INTs. That led to insane check-downs and tentative throws downfield. So maybe if Mad Martz can un-fudge him he could turn into a serviceable QB. Maybe.
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Postby Wizzle » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:12 am

moochman wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:We'll see about Joey - I think he is a better passer than you guys do. Its my opinion that Joey's checkdown issue was something that Mooch coached into him. It should be interesting. I really dont see Joey overthrowing his targets all that often - I see him throwing slightly behind them more often - but I think the big timing issues the WRs have affect that as well - they struggled to get off the line the majority of the yr (a lack of a deep threat added to this). Kensat - the reason Joey didnt test the defense downfield was largly due to the offensive scheme he was in.

I am glad you told me about Martz offense though Kensat - I was under the impression it was complicated. Thanks for making me feel better about it. ;-D


It is a little too soon to give up on Bloey..er..Joey. I can't help but wonder if his indecisiveness, inaccuracy, and propensity to check down to RBs is all a result of the tremendous mind fudge that Mornhenweg & Mariucci laid on him. They beat into his head that you can't take sacks or throw INTs. That led to insane check-downs and tentative throws downfield. So maybe if Mad Martz can un-fudge him he could turn into a serviceable QB. Maybe.


I sure hope so, because we don't need to be wasting too many more high draft picks on offensive players.
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Postby wizbang » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:39 am

Martz is going to have to give the grade on what the QBs can do with his offense, and furthermore I think Martz' 1 year deal shows how much authority the guy will have when it comes to decision making on the offense.


My exact thought. No team wants to give their coordinators 1 year deals. It makes no sense. As a GM you can always fire the guy but if he does well you don't want him being able to leave for anything other than a HC position so the contract has value to the franchise. The one year deal shows that Martz is in a power position relative to Detroit and I (as a Lions fan) think that is deserved. I also think it will take more than one season for him to get another HC job so I'll bet the Lions are trying to get some verbiage about not leaving for another OC position.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:03 am

The latest is that it will be a multi-year deal, not a 1 yr deal as was previously rumored. The new multi-year deal was rumored by John Clayton.

It would suprise me if they made the announcement prior to the Superbowl. They may hold off on the announcement until after just out of respect for the league.
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Postby mutantseabass » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:55 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:The latest is that it will be a multi-year deal, not a 1 yr deal as was previously rumored. The new multi-year deal was rumored by John Clayton.

It would suprise me if they made the announcement prior to the Superbowl. They may hold off on the announcement until after just out of respect for the league.


I have heard it was going to be a 3 year deal. Nothing on money yet.
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