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Anyone else's opinion of the Bus change?

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Postby jh2031 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm

Warhawk wrote:
Slingblade wrote:He has never had a really huge year. His best YPC was 4.9 in his rookie year. Just a case of a guy playing to long to rack up the stats. That is the only reason he is that high on the all time rushing list. He should of retired after his 2001 season.


By that definition, Edgerrin James, Curtis Martin, and Marcus Allen never really had huge years either, seeing as they never had a year with a 4.9 yard per carry average. Priest Holmes, Ladainian Tomlinson, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, Emmitt Smith, Franco Harris, and Terrell Davis each only have had 1 year with a better YPC than that year by Bettis. So apparently all of them clearly should not be in the HOF.


Great point Warhawk.
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Postby Cooner » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Bettis has been about as solid as TJ Duckett for the past 5 years. The guy was a good player in his time, but in the end he should be remembered as a compiler and not a HOF caliber player. The guy never had greatness, he just hung on long enough to get on some record lists and win a Super Bowl trophy when he was running on fumes. He just as easily could have been remembered as the guy who sputtered out and single-handedly eliminated Pitt from the playoffs against Indy.
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When an outstanding RB like Thurman Thomas doesn't make it into the Hall, and Bus is getting serious consideration from everyone and their brother.. that's a travesity. The NFL HOF is about GREATNESS and that's just not the Bus. Maybe it's because he is a lot bigger than the average RB and he is a great guy, who knows? He does stand out from the crowd of RBs throughout time. But bottom line: Compilers shouldn't make the Hall of Fame IMO.

Do we really want the NFL's HOF to be reduced to baseball's level?


I would rather see Sterling Sharpe and Terrell Davis in the HOF rather than guys like Art Monk and Jerome Bettis.


There is a certain greatness in playing a game at a very high (though admittedly not the highest) level for that long. When there are so many running backs who show flashes of brilliance but can't maintain it for longer than two or three years, a running back who goes out and racks up consistent yardage year after year is refreshing. No, he's not a back who puts up fantastic numbers and dominates a season for you. But he is a back who you could count on to provide reliable yards, without fail, getting tough yards when you needed it, never tanking a season... longevity and consistency, in a league with so little of it, is certainly to be rewarded as greatness.
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Postby moochman » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:13 pm

Kensat30 wrote:I would rather see Sterling Sharpe and Terrell Davis in the HOF rather than guys like Art Monk and Jerome Bettis.


I have seldom seen you more off the mark, Kensat.
Monk and Bettis weren't the flashy players that apparently are to your liking, but that's not to say they didn't have an impact on their teams.

It was only two seasons ago that Bettis played a vital role in helping his team win 15 games. That speaks to the value of the player more so than how many highlight reel plays he makes. The man compiled over 14,000 yards playing a position that takes a huge toll on the body. Just look and see how many big bruising backs lasted as long. Very few. John Riggins comes to mind. Oh yeah, he didn't gain as many yards as Bettis.

Your dismissing the legitimacy of Bettis HOF status is tainted, perhaps, by the shadow of the player that we've seen this season.
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Postby louisianacajunsam » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:44 pm

exactly. bettis has had a great career. many of you act like you have only seen him play for three years or something. all running backs had some down years, usually towards the end of a career. so basically,
1) what seperated the back from the rest? - this guy was original and made a name for himself amongst everyone (he had the celebrity and reputation does count)
2) how many great years did he have? - this wasnt the kinda back to get 2000 yards and quite frankly, that doesnt mean hes not a hofamer..but he his rookie year along with about four others or so in pitt
3) how many consistent years of pretty good play - all the rest with the exception of his second season and this year...its important to have some compiliing years is what i mean..it shows consistency...

all the other rb's mentioned earlier had some very average seasons as well...
personally, id put bettis over dickerson, c.martin, holmes, and t.davis and about on the same par as campbell, dorsett, edge, and t.thomas..PERSONALLY
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Postby Slingblade » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:38 pm

louisianacajunsam wrote:all the other rb's mentioned earlier had some very average seasons as well...
personally, id put bettis over dickerson, c.martin, holmes, and t.davis and about on the same par as campbell, dorsett, edge, and t.thomas..PERSONALLY


I got a chuckle out of that.

Here is a sportline article about it....I liked this excerpt.

Bettis has 13,362 yards in 13 seasons, which is an average of 1,028 yards per season. So let me ask you: Is 1,000 yards a good season? If your team drafted a running back in April that would give you 1,028 yards per season, would you be excited about that? Or would you want more, which is what you should want in a 16-game season?

If you break Bettis down even more, he's averaged 69.5 yards per game in his career. Are those Hall of Fame numbers? It's certainly debatable.

Longevity might make them that. But do we reward service or stardom?

When asking around about the chances of Bettis making the Hall, one name that I used as a comparison was Ricky Watters.

Ricky Watters?

That's what a lot of voters said. But let's take a look at Watters.

In his 10 seasons, he rushed for 10,643 yards. That's a per-season average of 1,064 yards -- better than Bettis. His per-game average is 73.9, again better than Bettis. Watters had seven 1,000-yard seasons in 10, while Bettis had eight in 13, a better percentage for Watters.

Watters went to five Pro Bowls, Bettis six. Bettis has 94 touchdowns, while Watters had 91. Watters had 467 receptions for 4,228, while Bettis has 200 catches for 1,449, which gives Watters a narrow edge in yards from scrimmage.

So is Ricky Watters a Hall candidate?

The answer from almost all the voters is no -- a quick no.
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Postby louisianacajunsam » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:22 pm

longevity does matter...
as well as greatness..
as well as being a team player..
as well as winning championships on some level..

watters was an ass, a me-first type of player, which is why he retired early..he wouldnt take a backup role or a rbbc role..

bettis represents everything that is right for the game..of course his numbers went down..he took on a lesser role which would obviously get him lesser numbers to help a team win a championship..and he was great in that role..

greatness can always be debated but its usually pretty obvious if you stop looking at stats, stats, stats, and comparisons of stats..

most people will agree that they saw greatness over the course of bettis's career and not watters..why, i dont know fully..but i saw it..

thats why he will got to the hall easily however, and watters wont..thats all i can argue..

comparing stats and only stats is thinking like a fantasy football bum..its not all stats..its greatness, which is measured with the eyes and spirit of the game..

if you want to talk about averages over short periods of time, you might as well put reuben mayes in the hall of fame..thats right..you probably never even heard of him..or maybe germaine crowell
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Postby Dr. Duran Duran » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:34 pm

louisianacajunsam wrote:longevity does matter...
as well as greatness..
as well as being a team player..
as well as winning championships on some level..

watters was an ass, a me-first type of player, which is why he retired early..he wouldnt take a backup role or a rbbc role...


Actually, in Watters' defense, plane travel is what supposedly stopped his career. After 9/11 happened, I've heard from various sources that Watters never wanted to get on a plane again, but that could just be a cop out.

louisianacajunsam wrote:bettis represents everything that is right for the game..of course his numbers went down..he took on a lesser role which would obviously get him lesser numbers to help a team win a championship..and he was great in that role..

greatness can always be debated but its usually pretty obvious if you stop looking at stats, stats, stats, and comparisons of stats..

most people will agree that they saw greatness over the course of bettis's career and not watters..why, i dont know fully..but i saw it..

thats why he will got to the hall easily however, and watters wont..thats all i can argue..

comparing stats and only stats is thinking like a fantasy football bum..its not all stats..its greatness, which is measured with the eyes and spirit of the game..

if you want to talk about averages over short periods of time, you might as well put reuben mayes in the hall of fame..thats right..you probably never even heard of him..or maybe germaine crowell


Wow, way to bring up Reuben Mayes! And whatever became of poor Germane Crowell? I thought for a while he was going to be the next coming of Herman Moore! In any case, Bettis is a certain Hall of Famer for the very reasons you mentioned. He was a great example of selflessness and attitude. An elite running back for the majority of his career and a tremendous role player when his best days were behind him. The totals of his career are exactly what the Hall of Fame looks for in a running back.
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Postby MentalPowerHouse » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:40 pm

The fact that people have to go so far out of their way to bring this guy down should tell you how good he was. He's retiring now, can't you just admit he had a good career and give him some respect?

That article is a joke, yes 1000 yards is a good season and yes I would be very excited about a back that would average over 1000 yards over a 13 year career considering that includes injury shortened years and the tail end of his carreer. Sure 1000 yards isn't a great year, and I would expect more from his career years, but for an average its good. He talks about his yards/g stat and that they aren't HoF numbers, but then says his longevity helps him when his longevity are what hurt his yards/g considering his last 4 years were his worse 4 except 1995.

It's ridiculus that people try to knock longevity so much. If the player becomes a detriment to the team sure its bad, but the fact that Jerome could be a key player for his team for 13 years is a bad thing? Even in this brutal last 4 years which he "should have retired" he scored 38 touchdowns, seems like he was still a key member without having to be a feature back to me.
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Postby mysticphysh » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:40 pm

Bettis was making loads of money a couple years back, but took a paycut (several mil a year) to stay with the team. Then to come back and contribute (especially last year) the way he has the past two years while working on a paycut...well, that's the type of guy he is. He could have gone to another team to try for a superbowl, but he believed in this team and has deep loyalties.

He's also a pillar of the community off-field in pittsburgh. I dont think I've ever heard of him bemoaning the team when they're down, or ragging on anyone else. Classy guy. ;-D
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Postby Kensat30 » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:41 pm

moochman wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:I would rather see Sterling Sharpe and Terrell Davis in the HOF rather than guys like Art Monk and Jerome Bettis.


I have seldom seen you more off the mark, Kensat.
Monk and Bettis weren't the flashy players that apparently are to your liking, but that's not to say they didn't have an impact on their teams.

Your dismissing the legitimacy of Bettis HOF status is tainted, perhaps, by the shadow of the player that we've seen this season.


That's just it though, I DON"T think that those flashy players should get into the HOF. It's just that I would RATHER see players who were great for a very short period of time get in rather than players who were very good for a very long period of time get in.

When I think HOF, I don't look at the career as a whole when I think of a player, I think at what point in time was that player one of the best, one of the greats. Players like Bettis and Monk were always good and sometimes very good, but they were never great. That's pretty vague and hard to just back up with statistics, but it's something you can feel in your heart. Guys that you think of as pretty damn good don't deserve to be in the HOF even if they are memorable and great figures like Jerome has been. To me, the NFL HOF is reserved for players who have put together a career filled with greatness
---.

When you look at records lists and you see Jerry Rice/Emmitt Smith do you remember the career as whole? Remember how they tailed off at the very end? Or do you remember the period of time when the dudes were some of the baddest football players on the planet? Like when you watch Barry Sanders player and thought to yourself.. wow that man has something special. You don't need to reference how he could have hung on and been a record-holder, all you had to do is think back to watching him make those incredible runs and you realize he is a hall of famer.
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I never look back and think of Bettis and say wow, that was one of the best football players of our generation. Therefore no matter what kind of stats the guy had, or the character he showed on and off the field, or how unique of a player he was, he does NOT deserve to be in the HOF. Of course it's up to the individual voters to decide, but if I'm on that panel, The Bus will be remembered on ESPN Classics and not in Canton.
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