GHFOAT: Genghis Khan vs. Julius Caesar

[knapplc]

70/30 ...I thought it would be closer than this.

I'm not really surprised. Caesar's body of work outshines Khan's.

Thats your opinion ... not neccesarily a fact.

If you consider where each man started and where they were at the end of their life, Khan was greater.
Caesar - born to an aristocratic family with an avenue in place for his career in politics.
Khan - born in a felt tent to illiterate, religiously shamanistic nomads.
At his death, in terms of square miles conquered, he was the greatest conquerer of all time.
Khan did more with less than Caesar, leading me to consider him greater.

Caesar WAS born of a patrician family - but by blood only. They were very poor, and lived in the Roman slums for much of Caesar's childhood. He had to enter the military simply to have an chance of earning a living or to have any prayer of earning a seat on the Senate. It's not like his way was paved for him because of his family name. He had to earn everything he got.

So he joins the military and enters as an officer based on his blood, but he's shunned by the other nobility as a poor bumpkin. Almost immediately he wins recognition for his bravery, skill and grasp of military tactics, and swiftly rises through the ranks, earning the cursus honorum along the way.

Sure Khan's empire covered more square mileage than Caesar's - but square miles of what? The Russian Steppe? Nobody wanted it! The cities and lands laid at the feet of Khan were largely won by his generals while he was at home, too fat to ride a horse anymore. Caesar remained fit and "in fighting shape" his whole life.

Further, Khan's conquests were of lands ruled by men who largely did not trust their own military. They often took direct control over battles with disastrous consequences. And again, it was Khan's generals (Subedei in particular, who I nominated but who wasn't able to earn a seed in the tournament) who won the battles that gave Khan the bulk of his land.

Caesar, on the other hand, faced very qualified and at times brilliant military opponents. His conquest of the Gauls subjugated a people that had terrorized the Romans for hundreds of years. Caesar's victory was so complete and the Gauls were pacified so much that they were eventually absorbed into the empire. Caesar also fought - and won - the Roman Civil War, during which he defeated some of history's most brilliant generals, often while vastly outnumbered. His defeat of Pompey at Pharsalus was an absolutely brilliant victory, and his later defeat of Pharnaces II at the battle of Zela was one of history's most amazing victories.

Yes it is my opinion, but one I feel is borne out by the facts.

[Lushcrush]

Khan put a chain of command in place that allowed the Mongols to continue to conquer after his death and move into Europe.
This, to me, is impressive in that before Khan and in his early days Mongol warriors were not known for loyalty and would cast their allegience with whoever was on top at the time. For the empire to continue to grow and thrive after his death is a testament to how far he took his people ... farther than Caesar.
Caesar did great things in reforming the Roman political system, especially for the common folks, but Khan went further from start to finish in reshaping his society.
The Turks, Persians and Chinese were among the Mongol conquests. I don't think they could be categorized as incompetent (not what you said but kinda implied). And didn't the Gauls revolt a couple of times? Nobody revolted against Khan. Once he conquered - people stayed conquered. They knew the alternative was certain slaughter.
As far as the value of Khans empire, I would say from China to Hungary (including the Silk Road) is some pretty valuable property.
As a warring people, the Mongols were unparalled. Using the economy of scale (slaughter vs. surrender), they did more with less than the Romans.

This is the best matchup of the tournament

[Tiki]

All you need to know is that Khan would eat Caeser. C'mon Khan!!!!

[knapplc]

This is the best matchup of the tournament

Agreed!

All you need to know is that Khan would eat Caeser. C'mon Khan!!!!

This is perhaps the funniest quote of this whole tournament!












Post #1987 - the first year I kissed a girl

[VaderFin]

Less then a day to go.

[chaindog35]

i gotta give it to kahn. without him the monguls were nothing. Without Caeser, the romans ruled for several hundred more years

[knapplc]

i gotta give it to kahn. without him the monguls were nothing. Without Caeser, the romans ruled for several hundred more years

The argument could be made that the Romans ruled for hundreds more years BECAUSE of Caesar.

[chaindog35]

yeah, that's a possible argument, both are great. I still don't know how Caesar beats Alexander. Alexander was much, much greater. guess i should have voted though. Honestly, between Caeser and Kahn, I prefer Kahn, but both were exceptional leaders.

[Nilmerf]

The people have spoken! Alexander is the winner.

[dream_017]

JC