maddog60 wrote:The fact that Jefferson made it this far is a crock.
Lousiana Purchase - TJ sent Monroe and Livingston to buy a small part of land around the Mississippi or at least negotiate safe passage for our ships along the river. They acted on their own, and bought the entire territory when the French surprisingly offered such a great deal.
Constitution - TJ was the freaking secretary. Its not like he went off on his own and the wrote the whole thing. No, he sat in the 2nd Continental Congress and listened to the debates, and when one was resolved, he wrote it down. If any single American deserves credit for the forming of the Constitution its John Adams, was a chief negotiator between differing congressmen, if not the chief negotiator, without whom the colonists may not ever ever settled there varying disputes.
Jefferson is the most overrated American in history, getting credit for major events that were the direct result of the work of others.
I say we take him out back and kick his a$$! That'll show him!
Seriously, this has been a messed up bracket since day one.
Jefferson will get destroyed in the next round. Don't worry.
xted30 wrote:Give me TJ. Doubling the size of the country? Come one. Not even close.
Know your history. TJ didn't double our size. His ambassadors did, acting on their own for the behalf of the US.
Yes, but they did it under the auspices of TJ, hence he gets the credit. We remember FDR for his brilliant leadership during WWII, when it was Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur and the soldiers who actually earned the victory.
TJ deserves credit for the Louisiana Purchase. Whether he deserves to have won the Politics bracket or not - that's another debate.
knapplc wrote:TJ deserves credit for the Louisiana Purchase. Whether he deserves to have won the Politics bracket or not - that's another debate.
No he doesnt. He had no knowledge of the offer or the purchase until it had been completed. His ambassadors came back and said. "Guess what? They offered us the chance to double our country's size. We went ahead and did it, I hope you approve."
Basically, lets say someone works at an engineering company, and gets a task. While on that task, they invent a product that is completely revolutionary. Does their supervisor deserve credit as the inventor? No.
maddog60 wrote:Basically, lets say someone works at an engineering company, and gets a task. While on that task, they invent a product that is completely revolutionary. Does their supervisor deserve credit as the inventor? No.
Good point, and he probably doesn't, but you know that supervisor is going to get the credit.
You're actually making the same argument against TJ that I made FOR Subedei, so it's not like I'm disagreeing with you all that much. I'm certainly no champion of Jefferson.