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DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Metroid » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:46 am

Absolutely Kilroy, I hear where you're coming from. I was mainly addressing the posts on this last page. I know that you were speaking to this particular case. ;-D

You believe in capitol punishment, that is certainly your right and I absolutely respect that. I myself have waffled on the capitol punishment issue pretty much forever. I tend to side against now. Killing someone because they have killed just seems wrong to me, I wont go into why, since it's been said over and over before, but that's just the way I feel.

I will say that I'm not going to lose any sleep knowing the DC sniper is six feet under.
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby FearandLoathinginATL » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:41 pm

Metroid wrote:Wow Mad...reading some of that. 8-o

You guys have continuously avoided a question, or point, I'd like to hear your thoughts on. There have been a great number of people on Death row who have in fact been found innocent well after their trial during the lengthy appeals process. "Speeding up" the process would certainly result in putting innocent people to death. How would you feel if your friend or brother or you were falsely convicted of a murder and were put to death because your appeals rights were stripped or sped up? Are you seriously going to chop that up to being for the greater good?

Public beatings, floggings, dragging people around behind a car....wow, that's torture. Guys what you are asking for is to completely disregard our Constitution and Bill of Rights, everything this country was founded on. The stuff that our brave men and women in our armed forces are fighting for everyday. The stuff that separates us as a nation from all others. What you're talking about is Soviet Russia, or communist China, or even Nazi Germany. That is not the type of society I want to live in. My dad actually fought in a war against a person who believed in swift justice, a person who stripped civil rights away from his citizens, a person who after a short trial would have you taken out behind the court house and shot, his name was Adolf Hitler.

Anyway I don't want to insert myself into this discussion too much, but I just I have to say, thank god there are still plenty of people who still believe in what this country was founded on. :-°


I had a whole response ready but Met, you've basically said anything that I was going to, probably in a much more concise way, so I'll just quote you.

Madison, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue of the death penalty. I was just hoping to get across to you that our justice system is set up the way it is to protect the rights of those who enter it. Those fundamental rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution is what has made countries around the world decide to create their governments based on our own. While I agree our justice system may not have the best or most effiecient way of going about things, for the most part it works pretty damn well. Removing those protections we receive would be taking our country back in a direction that we have be fighting against for the better part of 250 years.
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Dolfin99 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:07 pm

I am glad that he is gone. I lived in Northern Virginia during this time and we are scared sh*tless for weeks. In fact, we did not even leave the base. :-o
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Madison » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:41 pm

Metroid wrote:Wow Mad...reading some of that. 8-o

You guys have continuously avoided a question, or point, I'd like to hear your thoughts on. There have been a great number of people on Death row who have in fact been found innocent well after their trial during the lengthy appeals process. "Speeding up" the process would certainly result in putting innocent people to death. How would you feel if your friend or brother or you were falsely convicted of a murder and were put to death because your appeals rights were stripped or sped up? Are you seriously going to chop that up to being for the greater good?

Public beatings, floggings, dragging people around behind a car....wow, that's torture. Guys what you are asking for is to completely disregard our Constitution and Bill of Rights, everything this country was founded on. The stuff that our brave men and women in our armed forces are fighting for everyday. The stuff that separates us as a nation from all others. What you're talking about is Soviet Russia, or communist China, or even Nazi Germany. That is not the type of society I want to live in. My dad actually fought in a war against a person who believed in swift justice, a person who stripped civil rights away from his citizens, a person who after a short trial would have you taken out behind the court house and shot, his name was Adolf Hitler.

Anyway I don't want to insert myself into this discussion too much, but I just I have to say, thank god there are still plenty of people who still believe in what this country was founded on. :-°


I didn't avoid anything. I answered it right here:

Madison wrote:I'll simply say that I'd happily and easily welcome the tradeoff of bringing in a real law with real teeth over the joke of a law we currently have.


And yet again, I'm not doing anything to the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, or anything like that. The suggestion of that is so far off base that it actually is annoying (seriously), and I don't get annoyed on message boards anymore. The criminal chooses to forfeit his rights when he/she chooses to murder someone. So "I" am not doing jack squat, "THEY" are making the choice to give up their rights and their life. This isn't rocket science or something hard to follow, it's really simple. If someone disagrees with that and think criminals can choose to kill and still retain the rights "given" (not earned, not something they are entitled to, something they are GIVEN) to them by our country, no worries, but to continue to say I'm talking about stripping anyone of their rights, or I'm talking about taking their rights away, or anything like that. is simply ignorant to an absurd degree. They are making the choice, not me. Sheesh. :-{

So why protect scum that make the choice to die? Do those who protect criminals mistakenly think their stance makes them appear morally superior or more civilized or something?
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby stomperrob » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:01 pm

The death penalty drops the recidivism rate to zero. Don't have to ever worry about them getting out and repeating, or killing prison staff.
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Metroid » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:25 pm

Madison wrote:I'll simply say that I'd happily and easily welcome the tradeoff of bringing in a real law with real teeth over the joke of a law we currently have.

That still doesn't really address what I was getting at. So you're saying it's OK if innocent people are put to death if it means guilty people are punished swiftly and more severely?

But you're right, it's not rocket science, the problem is we're mixing personal beliefs with law. You are doing it right there by saying that a criminal "forfeits his/her rights when he/she chooses to murder someone." That's not the way it works, even criminals have rights, they have for a long time, this is nothing new. "Due process" is written into our constitution, and we all have rights criminal or not. Does a murderer the same rights? No. Do they have the right to walk among us once apprehended? Of course not, but they have a right to a fair and legal jury trial and a right to pursue appeals through the appeals system. What you have said is you want to speed up that process, that process is there for a reason, it's there to make sure that the process is done correctly.

I've already said that I myself have waffled on the death penalty issue, but one thing I have never waffled on is our justice and legal system. You're mistaken my trust in the legal system for wanting to "protect animals." That couldn't be further from the truth. What I'm protecting is our legal system, and the rights of all of us. If I were falsely accused and convicted of a crime I would want to be able to appeal and clear my name. Wouldn't you?

And lastly public beatings, floggings, and dragging people around behind cars has no place in our society or any other, no more than murder does. That is torture and we just don't do that in America. That's what I meant when I said "disregard our Constitution and Bill of Rights."
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:27 pm

Madison wrote:The criminal chooses to forfeit his rights when he/she chooses to murder someone.

The accused forfeit their rights? Or just the convicted? And those who are convicted and then later acquitted, as has been brought up several times already? One of the beautiful things about this country is that everybody has their rights. Everybody. Even the convicted maintain all but a select few of their rights, because when this country was established, it was stated that everybody is entitled to said rights.

I am right here with Metroid, but not really looking to get too deeply into it, since he's stated most pretty well. When the studies show that the death penalty does nothing to deter the crimes it is used for, then I don't care how many "teeth" you want to do it, it's killing people to kill people. Using emotion to complete a task that should be carried out with the mind.
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Madison » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:45 pm

Metroid wrote:
Madison wrote:I'll simply say that I'd happily and easily welcome the tradeoff of bringing in a real law with real teeth over the joke of a law we currently have.

That still doesn't really address what I was getting at. So you're saying it's OK if innocent people are put to death if it means guilty people are punished swiftly and more severely?

But you're right, it's not rocket science, the problem is we're mixing personal beliefs with law. You are doing it right there by saying that a criminal "forfeits his/her rights when he/she chooses to murder someone." That's not the way it works, even criminals have rights, they have for a long time, this is nothing new. "Due process" is written into our constitution, and we all have rights criminal or not. Does a murderer the same rights? No. Do they have the right to walk among us once apprehended? Of course not, but they have a right to a fair and legal jury trial and a right to pursue appeals through the appeals system. What you have said is you want to speed up that process, that process is there for a reason, it's there to make sure that the process is done correctly.

I've already said that I myself have waffled on the death penalty issue, but one thing I have never waffled on is our justice and legal system. You're mistaken my trust in the legal system for wanting to "protect animals." That couldn't be further from the truth. What I'm protecting is our legal system, and the rights of all of us. If I were falsely accused and convicted of a crime I would want to be able to appeal and clear my name. Wouldn't you?

And lastly public beatings, floggings, and dragging people around behind cars has no place in our society or any other, no more than murder does. That is torture and we just don't do that in America. That's what I meant when I said "disregard our Constitution and Bill of Rights."


Ok, "YES". Happy? :*)

Actually, a criminal does forfeit his/her rights when they break the law. You support people going to prison for their crimes, so the criminal chose to forfeit his right to liberty by breaking the law, yes? Right to life is no different. Commit murder, and you forfeit your right to life.

The legal system is broken. The appeals process is drawn out way too long by those without the stomach to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done (or they simply are under the delusion that they are more civilized or morally superior when it comes to being against the death penalty). Come on, 7 years in this case? Ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. And as long as the timeframe is absurdly long, I will continue to advocate for speeding it up.

I'd probably kill myself if I couldn't convince at least one person on the jury that there was reasonable doubt that I committed whatever murder I was wrongly accused of. :-b Appeal? With what? If it couldn't be proven in court after months of planning and weeks (or months) actually in court, what are you going to do? Magically remember something? :-D

I simply said that I have zero problem with an "eye for an eye". If a criminal drags a woman to death while she's tied to his car and he drives down the street, then I have zero problems with doing the exact same thing to him. That's not "disregarding" anything, that's giving him fair and equal treatment, which is also something we give in this country. ;-)

bigh0rt wrote:
Madison wrote:The criminal chooses to forfeit his rights when he/she chooses to murder someone.

The accused forfeit their rights? Or just the convicted? And those who are convicted and then later acquitted, as has been brought up several times already? One of the beautiful things about this country is that everybody has their rights. Everybody. Even the convicted maintain all but a select few of their rights, because when this country was established, it was stated that everybody is entitled to said rights.

I am right here with Metroid, but not really looking to get too deeply into it, since he's stated most pretty well. When the studies show that the death penalty does nothing to deter the crimes it is used for, then I don't care how many "teeth" you want to do it, it's killing people to kill people. Using emotion to complete a task that should be carried out with the mind.


I've been talking convicted murderers this whole time. Not sure I've even used the world "accused". But as I just explained to Metroid, criminals choose to give up their freedom and liberty by choosing to break the law. Choosing to die is no different.

If running a stop sign resulted in a $1 fine, hardly anyone would stop for a stop sign. Using your logic, we should abolish the $1 fine because it doesn't do any good instead of making the fine large enough to convince people to stop for the stop sign like they are supposed to. Great logic. :-b
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:52 pm

Madison wrote:If running a stop sign resulted in a $1 fine, hardly anyone would stop for a stop sign. Using your logic, we should abolish the $1 fine because it doesn't do any good instead of making the fine large enough to convince people to stop for the stop sign like they are supposed to. Great logic. :-b

We should just kill the people who run Stop signs. It will end all repeat offenses, and let them know we mean business.
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Re: DC Sniper Begins Questioning Witnesses

Postby Madison » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:59 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Madison wrote:If running a stop sign resulted in a $1 fine, hardly anyone would stop for a stop sign. Using your logic, we should abolish the $1 fine because it doesn't do any good instead of making the fine large enough to convince people to stop for the stop sign like they are supposed to. Great logic. :-b

We should just kill the people who run Stop signs. It will end all repeat offenses, and let them know we mean business.


See, I knew I'd convert you eventually! :-B

:*)
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