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Is Jimmy Smith Hall Of Fame Worthy?

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Is Jimmy Smith A Hall of Famer?

Yes
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61%
No
29
39%
 
Total votes : 74

Postby bagobonez » Sat May 13, 2006 8:31 pm

Like Jim Rome says... if you have to make an argument for a guy to get in the HOF, then the argument's already been made. He doesn't deserve it.
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Thu May 18, 2006 5:46 pm

I was actually pretty surprised with Jimmy's numbers when I looked at them this week as well. I voted him into the HOF (like I get a real vote) because he did put up some great numbers in his career. He was very consistent with his great numbers and didn't just hang on to add to his stats.

But, if Irvin doesn't get in, neither Smith nor Monk shoudl get in. And I'd put in Smith before Monk as well. For all the reasons that poor misguided eagle fan has said.

Imagine the debates going on in a few years when Bledose retires. When he does he could be second or first in ALOT of QB stats. Of course that debate will come with a SB ring so maybe that will help him out a bit... :-D
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby eaglesrule » Thu May 18, 2006 6:52 pm

I just wanted to add something, as this is an argument that seems to have come up here, the eagles forums, at work and some other forums (that aren't necessarily sports-related).

A lot of people weigh in on this argument, and to me, sums up the idea of HOF in all sports because its a philosophical argument.

One one hand, people will always bring up career totals and era when it comes to monk. Although, for some reason, monk's career totals "count," but more recent guys (like smith) don't. I don't get that at all. I do think that football is NOT baseball. you can still put up stats by yourself in baseball, independent (to some degree) of your team. Yea, your runs will suffer if your team can't bat you in, and your rbis will suffer if they can't get on base. And of course, lack of protection hurts you. But, as a hitter, you can still put up average and hr's almost independent of that. Roids or otherwise (discussion for the dark side AND another day) Barry still put up stats on stinky team.

Football isn't like that. A good running back usually has a good line pushing for him, and at least a moderate pass attack to keep defenses honest. And sometimes, they play for a team that has a monster d, so a prolonged offensive attack makes some measure of sense for a clock killing strategy (those guys can get stats through attrition). Good passers have good protection, decent receivers. it really is a team game in all phases. It makes me wonder: manning, cpep, brady etc al, all put up monster stats, but then they had better recieving than mcnabb for their career. when McNabb finally got TO, his stats skyrocketed. In my opinion, it deflates the other qbs more than in inflates Donovan, since they all had more weapons. I downgrade their performace (I am a homer, but still) because if donovan had the weapons to put up stats, AND won tons of games, he clearly deserves his place among the elite. That said, it is a judgment call for that reason. So on those grounds, I'll err on the side of Monk getting in, but Irvin BETTER get in, and smith should, but I don't care. Football HAS to inject personal judgment, since so much is determined by teammates, and style of play, where baseball doesn't have as much of that involved.

But, to the point, Monk was not a victim of his era. I enumerated relevant stats earlier, so I won't rehash them.

But, he was most certainly not a victim of his era as far as passing is concerned. I went through pro-football reference.com and looked at the receiving leaders for his career. My conclusion: the 1000 yard season was not anywhere the abnormality that some infer, and thus, monk is not the paragon of receivng, and the HOF snub people make him out to be.

Consider:


League Leaders according to profootball reference.com for the bulk of Monk's career: (top 10 receivers only)

1980 had 8 wrs break 1000 yards, and 4 break 1100 (monk had a decent year, 58 catches, 797 yards, 3tc)
1981 had 10 wrs break 1000, 9 break 1100 (monk: 56, 894, 6)
1982 had one (monk was a nonfactor)
1983 10 receivers broke 1100, 3 1200, 3 1300 (47, 746, 5)
1984 10 broke 1100, 5 broke 1300, one broke 1500 (monk, huge: 106 1372 12.9 7) --(edited this, had the wrong stats.)
1985 10 over a 1000, 6 broke 1100, 3 1200 (monk, semi-huge, bad tds, great possesion: 91, 1226, 13.5, 2)
1986 10 over a 1000 (again), one over 1500, one over 1400 (monk: pretty good: 73 1068 14.6 4 )
1987 4 over a 1000 (monk: 38 483 12.7 6)
1988 10 over 1000, one over 1300, one over 1400 (monk: 72 946 13.1 5 )
1989 10 over a 1000, 4 over 1200, 3 over 1300, 3 over 1400 (monk: 86 1186 13.8 8)
1990 10 over a 1000, 2 over 1200, 1 over 1500 (monk: 68 770 11.3 5)
1991 20 guys over 1000, 7 over 1100, then a 1200, 1300, 1500 yard season. (monk, last relevant year: 71 1049 14.8 8)

I just don't think he was THAT good relative to his era to be honest. Tons of guys were getting yardage on par with him. I will say he was hurt by being on a running team, and he was a pioneer in the possesion receiver role. That said, its hardly a slam dunk he gets in based on career stats. he gained naother 1737 by hanging on, another 136 catches, and 8 td's. while there is something to be said for longevity, he basically accrued a monster season by it. It hink these guys should be judged on the best part of their career, not so much on the whole of it. It takes a lot of guys a bit to get started, and through luck or genetics, some guys can hang on, some earn it through condiditoning. But playing for a while doesn't mean you were good, it means you were good for a while, then adequate.

I think the bulk of your career should be HOF worthy, and basically only a third to a half on monk's career was that. And if that is going to be your ratio, you should have been a supernova during your prime. Obvisouly, longevity plays a role, you can't stink for a year, torch for two, then stink for another and get in. But longevity is used too much. Honestly, there has to be some measure of "i can't wait to see so and so" if you aren't going to be so statsitically dominant as to render that moot. meaning people were never electrified by monk, and his stats in retrospect (other than his best two years, which were awesome) must be. no one goes to see mariano rivera, but his stats are nasty. factor in the fact that only 17 (I believe) wr's even made it to the HOF, I don't think monk is a shoo in. Not before irvin, who put up monster stats for the bulk of his career, and was a major cog in three super bowl championships. I hate, I mean HATE the cowboys, but bagobones has a point. emmit, Aikman, and Irvin should make it. The boys WERE football in the early nineties and their three offensive stars have a claim over a good, but not critical player in two skins championships IMO.
Last edited by eaglesrule on Fri May 19, 2006 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Goatwhacker » Thu May 18, 2006 7:12 pm

Eaglesrule, great post. The fact that Monk only went to 3 Pro Bowls in 16 years should tell you something - the guy wasn't among the elite receivers in the league most of his career. For a while he was arguably not even the best receiver on his own team (Gary Clark). Monk was a good receiver who had a long career, to me that's not enough to put him in the HOF.
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Postby Dr. Duran Duran » Fri May 19, 2006 2:40 am

That was one of the most well put together posts I've seen in here in some time, eaglesrule. I may have to change my stance on Monk a tad just looking at how he ranked season-by-season. I'd be interested to see how Jimmy ranked every year of his career. I'm sure his numbers, once he broke out in 1996, will be a lot stronger than anything Monk did during his career. As for Irvin, I couldn't agree more. That guy DID put up great numbers virtually every season of his career and was a vital member of three Super Bowl teams in the 90's.
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Postby King Colt » Fri May 19, 2006 10:03 am

Dr. Duran Duran wrote:That was one of the most well put together posts I've seen in here in some time, eaglesrule. I may have to change my stance on Monk a tad just looking at how he ranked season-by-season. I'd be interested to see how Jimmy ranked every year of his career. I'm sure his numbers, once he broke out in 1996, will be a lot stronger than anything Monk did during his career. As for Irvin, I couldn't agree more. That guy DID put up great numbers virtually every season of his career and was a vital member of three Super Bowl teams in the 90's.


Agreed on the eaglesrule post. Nicely written and fun to read. Long posts are usually a bear.

I'm a no voter on both Monk and Jimmy Smith. Without having had the time to look at Smith's numbers yet, I'm willling to guess that he was usually around the 8-10 WR in the major stat categories each season.

IMO, a HOFer needs to be one of the premier players at his position during his era. Smith was really good, but he wasn't elite.
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Postby King Colt » Fri May 19, 2006 10:40 am

So I looked at Jimmy Smith's stats and those of some other good/great WR's of his era.

First with Jimmy's stat breakdown. The number in each heading indicates how many players finished with better stats than Jimmy in that year.

Year***Rec.***Yards***TD
1996***14*****4 *****18
1997***6******3******40+
1998***10*****4******12
1999***0******1******24
2000***10****11******10
2001***1******3******11
2002***16****17******11
2003****low numbers all around
2004***23****13******30
2005***24****17******24

The first clear knock on Jimmy is lack of TD's. There were only a few seasons when he sniffed the top 10 for WR scoring.

His yardage is impressive, though, moreso than I thought it would be.

IMO, he can claim two monster seasons, 1999 and 2001, although both are tempered by his TD totals.

Pretty good, not altogether great, IMO. I don't think these numbers speak for themselves to make him Canton worthy. It should also be important to look at him compared to some of his peers.
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Postby King Colt » Fri May 19, 2006 11:04 am

Over 11 seasons on the field, Jimmy had 862 catches, 12287 yards and 67 TDs.

In checking out career stats on Jimmy's peers, he seems to be clearly better than guys like: Wayne Chrebet, Ed McCaffrey, Terry Glenn, Eric Moulds, and Joe Horn.

I thought Moulds would compare more favorably, but with 675 catches, 9091 yards, and 48 TDs I guess not so much.

He is fairly similar, IMO, to these guys:
Keyshawn Johnson (10 yrs)-744--9756---60
Isaac Bruce (12 yrs)---------813--12278--77
Keenan McCardell (13 yrs)--825--10680--62

Are we gonna lobby any of these guys for the HOF?

IMO None of the guys above compare to this group:
Marvin Harrison (10 yrs)-927--12331--110
T.O. (10 yrs)--------------716--10535--101
Randy Moss (8 yrs)------634---10147---98

These guys are still playing and don't seem to be slowing down a whole lot. By the time they finish, their career stats should easily be above Jimmy Smith. All have significantly more TD production in a similar time span. Probably not coincidentally, these three guys have been, for years now, considered the best of the best at their positions. IMO, these guys seem to have the best shot at being HOF players.

Finally, we can compare Jimmy to a couple HOFers who were also contemporary players with him. I also took Jerry Rice's first 10 seasons to make a somewhat relevant comparison:
Jerry Rice (20 yrs)-----1549---22795---197
Jerry Rice (1st 10 yrs)--820---13275---131
Tim Brown (17 yrs)-----1094--14934---100
Cris carter (14 yrs)-----1101--13899---130

Very interesting that Smith has pretty similar catch and yards numbers to Rice over a similar span. Jerry just happened to be the GOAT and scored twice as many TD's as Jimmy did in that time.

I'm sticking with Jimmy Smith=no HOF.
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Postby WickedSmaat » Fri May 19, 2006 11:13 am

I voted no to the fame but yes to the Hall of Very Good ;)
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 pm

The thing that I find somewhat interesting in all of this, is I think the advent of fantasy sports--especially in football and baseball is going to add another wrinkle.

Obviosuly, fantasy is only skimming the creme of the top and ignores major factors to on-field success.


But Jimmy Smith was always my go to guy for the WR who dropped because he wasn't sexy and didn't have the upside.

Serisouly, if you aren't even drafted in the top 5 of your peers year in year out, were you HOF worthy? I haven't been playinf Fantasy so long, the first year I tried it was the Kurt Warner explosion year, so I can't say with much authority of smith's historical fantasy value. But I would suspect that Owens, Moss, Harrison, Horn and probably Moulds all went before him fairly consistently.
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