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Edgerrin James and his O-Line Problems

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Postby bagobonez » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:51 am

gablefan wrote:
michaelavelli wrote:
onnestabe wrote:Is that why St. Louis drafted Stephen Jackson two years ago when they were squarely focused on a pass-first offense ,and their defense was old and in shambles? GMs and coaches aren't always on the same page when it comes to personnel or team philosophies. Signing Edge could have just as much to do with generating excitement for a historically mediocre team franchise is opening a new stadium this year.


so you're suggesting that because a team is "pass heavy" they'll completely ignore the RB position when they have an aging Marshall Faulk holding down the position? and thus when they draft a RB, it's somehow a contradiction?

i love the "Team signs player X to generate excitement" argument. it was one of the biggest calling cards for the "Why the Texans Will Draft Reggie Bush" camps. how's that workin out for ya?

if you guys think that the Cardinals dropped huge money on the best available RB available to have a familiar name on the back of the jersey and still run the ball 11 times a game and "focus on the pass" then i submit to you that you do not know what you're talking about.



OK but what about Defense? Will Denny be content to play catch up 4 yards at a time with Edge, while havind Fitz and Boldin? I just still see too much up in the air to have faith in Edge in AZ?

And Correct me if I am wrong someone, but was that Minny team not the second most potent offense in the history of the NFL? I just don't see that happening in AZ. And that is why I have Edge ranked lower than most.


THe Cardinals' defense isn't the best in the league, but they're young and on the rise, and I think between their high scoring offense and an adequate defense, they'll keep games close enough that they won't really have to play "catch up." Edge will get his carries.
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Postby onnestabe » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:24 am

michaelavelli wrote:
onnestabe wrote:Is that why St. Louis drafted Stephen Jackson two years ago when they were squarely focused on a pass-first offense ,and their defense was old and in shambles? GMs and coaches aren't always on the same page when it comes to personnel or team philosophies. Signing Edge could have just as much to do with generating excitement for a historically mediocre team franchise is opening a new stadium this year.


so you're suggesting that because a team is "pass heavy" they'll completely ignore the RB position when they have an aging Marshall Faulk holding down the position? and thus when they draft a RB, it's somehow a contradiction?

i love the "Team signs player X to generate excitement" argument. it was one of the biggest calling cards for the "Why the Texans Will Draft Reggie Bush" camps. how's that workin out for ya?

if you guys think that the Cardinals dropped huge money on the best available RB available to have a familiar name on the back of the jersey and still run the ball 11 times a game and "focus on the pass" then i submit to you that you do not know what you're talking about.


I am not saying that the only reason to bring Edge in is to sell tickets and jerseys. And I "submit to you" that if you think selling tickets and jerseys had nothing to do with it, you don't know what you are talking about.

And as far as the Stephen Jackson analogy, I was using that as a tool to point out the fact that, sometimes, the left hand works independently of the right hand when it comes to NFL organizations (especially the poorly run franchises, like the Cardinals). Perhaps I should have used VY as an example of the GM making a choice that the coaches don't agree with, but I didn't really want to open the "VY is god" can of worms again. You chose to attack the example I used instead of the idea I was trying to illustrate - good job.
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Postby michaelavelli » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:01 pm

onnestabe wrote:
michaelavelli wrote:
onnestabe wrote:Is that why St. Louis drafted Stephen Jackson two years ago when they were squarely focused on a pass-first offense ,and their defense was old and in shambles? GMs and coaches aren't always on the same page when it comes to personnel or team philosophies. Signing Edge could have just as much to do with generating excitement for a historically mediocre team franchise is opening a new stadium this year.


so you're suggesting that because a team is "pass heavy" they'll completely ignore the RB position when they have an aging Marshall Faulk holding down the position? and thus when they draft a RB, it's somehow a contradiction?

i love the "Team signs player X to generate excitement" argument. it was one of the biggest calling cards for the "Why the Texans Will Draft Reggie Bush" camps. how's that workin out for ya?

if you guys think that the Cardinals dropped huge money on the best available RB available to have a familiar name on the back of the jersey and still run the ball 11 times a game and "focus on the pass" then i submit to you that you do not know what you're talking about.


I am not saying that the only reason to bring Edge in is to sell tickets and jerseys. And I "submit to you" that if you think selling tickets and jerseys had nothing to do with it, you don't know what you are talking about.


Well if you're not suggesting that it's the only reason they signed him, then what, do you think, would make up the other reasons? Think maybe they want him for what they can do with him on the field?

This just holds no water - if Edgerrin James signs and the Cardinals lose 7 of the first 8 and James is getting 15 carries for 47 cards, how many more tickets do you think they're going to sell? Winning attracts fans better than anything else, and James was signed because he is a great player and will help the team. I don't see the point of you saying "Yeah he's a great player but he'll also sell jersies" like it somehow refutes my original point.

onnestabe wrote:And as far as the Stephen Jackson analogy, I was using that as a tool to point out the fact that, sometimes, the left hand works independently of the right hand when it comes to NFL organizations (especially the poorly run franchises, like the Cardinals). Perhaps I should have used VY as an example of the GM making a choice that the coaches don't agree with, but I didn't really want to open the "VY is god" can of worms again. You chose to attack the example I used instead of the idea I was trying to illustrate - good job.


If you want people to focus on your idea, then pick a good example to reflect your idea rather than come after me because I took your OWN example and made it look like it made no sense.

And since you came up with the VY example to further your original point that just because the Cardinals signed Edge somehow doesn't mean that they're going to use him that much, are you aware that Tennessee is putting in an entirely different offense with special plays that taylor to VY's strengths? Fisher has already said he'll get some PT this year?

This just another bad example? Or maybe your idea that GM's go out and drop huge money and high draft picks on players that the coaches don't really plan to implement is not valid.
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Postby onnestabe » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:51 pm

michaelavelli wrote:Well if you're not suggesting that it's the only reason they signed him, then what, do you think, would make up the other reasons? Think maybe they want him for what they can do with him on the field?

This just holds no water - if Edgerrin James signs and the Cardinals lose 7 of the first 8 and James is getting 15 carries for 47 cards, how many more tickets do you think they're going to sell? Winning attracts fans better than anything else, and James was signed because he is a great player and will help the team. I don't see the point of you saying "Yeah he's a great player but he'll also sell jersies" like it somehow refutes my original point.


The other reasons to sign him obviously have to do with his talents, but that does not necessarily that they are going to suddenly become a running team, which is how this whole discussion started. Nowhere did I ever say that Edge could not help them on the field. I just pointed out the fact that: (A)he is a big name player that will spark some excitement, (B)the Cardinals historically have a hard time filling the stands, and (C)they don't want empty seats in their brand new stadium. What about those three facts is so mystifying to you?

And since you came up with the VY example to further your original point that just because the Cardinals signed Edge somehow doesn't mean that they're going to use him that much, are you aware that Tennessee is putting in an entirely different offense with special plays that taylor to VY's strengths? Fisher has already said he'll get some PT this year?

This just another bad example? Or maybe your idea that GM's go out and drop huge money and high draft picks on players that the coaches don't really plan to implement is not valid.


I don't see how the VY example is a bad one. It was well publicized before the draft that Fisher and Norm Chow would have rather had Leinart over Young. The GM and owner decided on Young, and now Fisher and Chow, because they are good coaches, are changing the offense to suit his talents.

And besides, when did I ever say that the Cardinals weren't going to use Edge that much? All I said was that I had a feeling that the passing game would still be the focus. Edge will get more touches than Arrington/Shipp/the waterboy got last year because he doesn't suck, but will he get enough to be a stud RB behind a dismal O-line? I have my doubts. I am sorry that my opinion is so distasteful to you.
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Postby michaelavelli » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:29 pm

onnestabe wrote:
michaelavelli wrote:Well if you're not suggesting that it's the only reason they signed him, then what, do you think, would make up the other reasons? Think maybe they want him for what they can do with him on the field?

This just holds no water - if Edgerrin James signs and the Cardinals lose 7 of the first 8 and James is getting 15 carries for 47 cards, how many more tickets do you think they're going to sell? Winning attracts fans better than anything else, and James was signed because he is a great player and will help the team. I don't see the point of you saying "Yeah he's a great player but he'll also sell jersies" like it somehow refutes my original point.


The other reasons to sign him obviously have to do with his talents, but that does not necessarily that they are going to suddenly become a running team, which is how this whole discussion started. Nowhere did I ever say that Edge could not help them on the field. I just pointed out the fact that: (A)he is a big name player that will spark some excitement, (B)the Cardinals historically have a hard time filling the stands, and (C)they don't want empty seats in their brand new stadium. What about those three facts is so mystifying to you?


You're not getting it.

I'm not refuting that Edgerring brings excitement or marketting. What I'm refuting is you bringing that up in the context of the discussion of how the Cardinals will be passing vs. rushing. You originally posted this marketting angle during a discussion of how much Edge will be used, saying:

onnestabe wrote:Signing Edge could have just as much to do with generating excitement for a historically mediocre team franchise is opening a new stadium this year


You were not just "pointing out the fact" that Edge sells jersies - this is obviousy - you were saying that the marketting benefits of signing Edgerrin James were a big enough reason for his signing that you downgrade him fantasy-wise.

THAT is what I'm refuting. Don't backtrack - if you were just saying "Hey Edge sells jersies" we wouldn't be having a big debate about that since its obvious and entirely not the point.

And since you came up with the VY example to further your original point that just because the Cardinals signed Edge somehow doesn't mean that they're going to use him that much, are you aware that Tennessee is putting in an entirely different offense with special plays that taylor to VY's strengths? Fisher has already said he'll get some PT this year?

This just another bad example? Or maybe your idea that GM's go out and drop huge money and high draft picks on players that the coaches don't really plan to implement is not valid.


I don't see how the VY example is a bad one. It was well publicized before the draft that Fisher and Norm Chow would have rather had Leinart over Young. The GM and owner decided on Young, and now Fisher and Chow, because they are good coaches, are changing the offense to suit his talents.

And besides, when did I ever say that the Cardinals weren't going to use Edge that much? All I said was that I had a feeling that the passing game would still be the focus. Edge will get more touches than Arrington/Shipp/the waterboy got last year because he doesn't suck, but will he get enough to be a stud RB behind a dismal O-line? I have my doubts. I am sorry that my opinion is so distasteful to you.[/quote]

I fail to see what Fisher/Chow's objections to the drafting of Vince Young has to do with anything. Your original angle above was that you weren't convinced Edge was going to be used as much as people thing because he was in large part signed to sell jersies - this does not apply to the VY draft pick since, as I've already mentioned, the Titans are organizing an entire offense around Young - thus, whether or not Fisher wanted him is irrelevant since this dissention is not going to affect his fantasy output, as you were implying in the Edge argument.

And don't give me that opinion crap - of course this is all opinion, the reason you post at all is to give an opinion and back it up with things - so if you run out of things to say, please do not just:

a) backtrack on what you said and try to make it look like you were "just pointing out" that Edge sells jersies

b) try and make it look like me debating you is me somehow just being intolerant of someone's "opinion" - you've stated an opinion and the reasons for it, and i'm debating the reasons you gave to support your opinion.
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Postby onnestabe » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:17 pm

I'm not refuting that Edgerring brings excitement or marketting. What I'm refuting is you bringing that up in the context of the discussion of how the Cardinals will be passing vs. rushing.


There is a big picture here, my comment on excitement was merely an additional reason for signing Edge - not the only one. I pointed it out in response to a comment you made that because they signed Edge, they want to focus on the run. I do think they will run more than they did last year, I just don't think that them signing Edge necessarily means that the running game will be the focus now - there are other factors to consider.

you were saying that the marketting benefits of signing Edgerrin James were a big enough reason for his signing that you downgrade him fantasy-wise.


If you will refer to my (much) earlier posts in this thread, I didn't have him ranked very far behind what you were saying in the first post of this thread (I think you had him ahead of SJax, I had him behind SJax - my exact words were "it's a hair's difference in my rankings". Not exactly a huge downgrade. I make most fantasy decisions based on gut feeling, and my gut feeling says that SJax has slightly better prospects than Edge for this year, which is what this argument is all about.

I fail to see what Fisher/Chow's objections to the drafting of Vince Young has to do with anything. Your original angle above was that you weren't convinced Edge was going to be used as much as people think because he was in large part signed to sell jersies - this does not apply to the VY draft pick since, as I've already mentioned, the Titans are organizing an entire offense around Young - thus, whether or not Fisher wanted him is irrelevant since this dissention is not going to affect his fantasy output, as you were implying in the Edge argument.


The VY example was meant to illustrate the idea that GMs and coaches work independently of each other from time to time (an obvious fact to all Saints fans). As I said in my last post, Denny Green will run the ball more than last year, but that's not saying much. You keyed in on one sentence that of a paragraph that was supporting your original post and decided to rip me for it.

And don't give me that opinion crap - of course this is all opinion, the reason you post at all is to give an opinion and back it up with things - so if you run out of things to say, please do not just:

a) backtrack on what you said and try to make it look like you were "just pointing out" that Edge sells jersies

b) try and make it look like me debating you is me somehow just being intolerant of someone's "opinion" - you've stated an opinion and the reasons for it, and i'm debating the reasons you gave to support your opinion.


I don't think that anything I have said since you disagreed with me is backtracking. I didn't make myself very clear initially, so I tried to illuminate matters further.

I don't mind the debate. That is why we are here. What I do mind is statements like:
michaelavelli wrote:you do not know what you're talking about.

and
michaelavelli wrote:This just holds no water


You are acting like I am a total fool to think that money influences decisions in the NFL, or that GMs and coaches don't agree with each other - and make no mistake, those are the two points I was making, whether you read more into it or not. Now if you want to continue this, feel free to post some more, but I don't really care at this point. The bottom line to all this is that you have Edge ranked at #6, and I have him ranked at #7.
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Postby boyz35 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:54 pm

michaelavelli wrote:
if you guys think that the Cardinals dropped huge money on the best available RB available to have a familiar name on the back of the jersey and still run the ball 11 times a game and "focus on the pass" then i submit to you that you do not know what you're talking about.

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Postby Smee » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:17 pm

gablefan wrote:
michaelavelli wrote:
onnestabe wrote:Is that why St. Louis drafted Stephen Jackson two years ago when they were squarely focused on a pass-first offense ,and their defense was old and in shambles? GMs and coaches aren't always on the same page when it comes to personnel or team philosophies. Signing Edge could have just as much to do with generating excitement for a historically mediocre team franchise is opening a new stadium this year.


so you're suggesting that because a team is "pass heavy" they'll completely ignore the RB position when they have an aging Marshall Faulk holding down the position? and thus when they draft a RB, it's somehow a contradiction?

i love the "Team signs player X to generate excitement" argument. it was one of the biggest calling cards for the "Why the Texans Will Draft Reggie Bush" camps. how's that workin out for ya?

if you guys think that the Cardinals dropped huge money on the best available RB available to have a familiar name on the back of the jersey and still run the ball 11 times a game and "focus on the pass" then i submit to you that you do not know what you're talking about.



OK but what about Defense? Will Denny be content to play catch up 4 yards at a time with Edge, while havind Fitz and Boldin? I just still see too much up in the air to have faith in Edge in AZ?

And Correct me if I am wrong someone, but was that Minny team not the second most potent offense in the history of the NFL? I just don't see that happening in AZ. And that is why I have Edge ranked lower than most.


Not to quibble, but the team you're thinking of was the '98 (15-1) Vikings.
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Postby michaelavelli » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:26 am

I agree that we've pretty much said what there is to say, and continuing would be akin to banging our respective heads against our desk, but of your last post, I do object to this:

onnestabe wrote:
michaelavelli wrote:you do not know what you're talking about.

and
michaelavelli wrote:This just holds no water


You are acting like I am a total fool to think that money influences decisions in the NFL, or that GMs and coaches don't agree with each other - and make no mistake, those are the two points I was making, whether you read more into it or not. Now if you want to continue this, feel free to post some more, but I don't really care at this point. The bottom line to all this is that you have Edge ranked at #6, and I have him ranked at #7.


The first statement is cut from a full sentence that had a qualifying statement - I never said "You don't know what you're talking about." Please do not try and make it look like that since it's obviously not what I said.

The latter about holding no water I don't really think is saying I think you're a "total fool" (whose words?) - but whatever.
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