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Breaking... on Tiki

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Postby ampant » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:09 pm

MrTwo94 wrote: Hey, if we're getting our final shots in then I'm going to point out that my IQ is above 140 (just now rushed through an online test to confirm that substance abuse has not done too much damage since the last one) . . . .
You are still a wanker. I made that statement as a direct response to your implication that I had a low IQ, due to a typo. You might very well have a higher IQ. I never even called your intelligence into question.

MrTwo94 wrote:I would move on to you arguments but none are really noteworthy. You've tried emphasizing parts of my sentences to improperly convey what I was saying. That was smooth.
You are full of it. You are also fond of ignoring arguments that are inconvenient for you. Furthermore, each quote consisted of at least two complete sentences in their original order, and were completely unmodified. I wasn't "improperly conveying" what you were saying, I was quoting what you actually said. Now you are trying to backpeddle out of it.

MrTwo94 wrote:And stop your incessant whining that I won't take your ridiculous bet. 99.9% of the people here predict Tiki to finish in the top 10. [etc.]. . . . So stop trying to put words in my mouth and change my bet. You take the even odds bet or wuss out.
The only words I have put in your mouth are your own. Your bet isn't an even-odds bet. 99.9% of the people here have four other backs higher than him. And 90+% expect his numbers to drop slightly from last year. That means that the chances of him putting up top 5 numbers again are unlikely (certainly less than 50%). If 1 other back breaks out, or if he even misses a few games to injury, (both of which are likely to happen) he won't make top 5. It makes even less sense for me to take your bet, since I have NEVER said that he was in my top 5.

MrTwo94 wrote:And for most of this time, he hasn't even been debating the important issue (that Tiki is overrated). He seems to just be arguing the side of the issue that everyone else agrees with just for the sake of hearing people agree with him.

I have agreed numerous times that Tiki was overrated. For example . . .
ampant wrote:. . . , you are probably correct that Tiki's value will drop this year, but it won't diminish nearly as low as you describe. I'm not sold on him being the #5 consensus back. I think he's still probably in the top 10 though.
So if Tiki IS the consensus top 5 back, then I have been disagreeing with everybody this whole time.

What I HAVE been debating your ludicrous assertion that Tiki was not a 1st rounder. You are the one twisting words. The betting terms I offered were based upon the statements that you and I were making, not on what anybody else said. And It wasn't until after I called you out on your blatant exaggerations that you actually started to justify your opinions and tone down your rhetoric.

My primary goal was to force you to admit that Tiki will probably finish in the top 10. I have succeeded in that goal.

Some more food for thought . . .

Over the past two seasons, Tiki has put rushed for 3378 yards, with an average of almost 5 ypc (4.97), and 22 TDs. Add to that the 1108 receiving yards and 4 TDs, with an average of 10.45 ypc.

So over the past two years, that is an average of 2243 total yards and 13 TDs per year. Couple that with the fact that he is healthy, has a good work ethic, a blooming offense with all of the same key position players, and no off-field problems.

If you don't think that is worth a 1st round pick, then you are being disingenuous. I have no problem with concept gambling on another player with more perceived upside. But I think everybody here will agree that taking a back in the 1st round who is one of the safest bets to finish in the top 10 isn't a chump maneuver.
Last edited by ampant on Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gablefan » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:26 pm

ampant wrote:
gablefan wrote:
ampant wrote:..... An idiot savant with an IQ of 87 can memorize every word and definition in the dictionary, but can't hold down a job as a greeter at the local Wal-Mart.
;-)


This is very untrue. I have a friend with an 85 IQ and he held down the toy department job there for over two years. And he quit them. ....Sadly they wouldn't hire him back 3 years later.


I stand corrected. I certainly meant no disrespect to your friend. . . and I tend to value a person's character more highly than his IQ. I was just trying to refute a point regarding spelling and IQ


Dude I was just kidding....Well not about the IQ or wal-mart thing , regardless I make fun of him, so its cool!
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Postby Kensat30 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:54 pm

MrTwo94 wrote:And stop your incessant whining that I won't take your ridiculous bet. 99.9% of the people here predict Tiki to finish in the top 10. I'm definitely going against the grain here so why would I give you even odds on this?


Because you would sure enough of yourself to sack up and be a man?

ampant wrote: The only words I have put in your mouth are your own. Your bet isn't an even-odds bet. 99.9% of the people here have four other backs higher than him. And 90+% expect his numbers to drop slightly from last year. That means that the chances of him putting up top 5 numbers again are unlikely (certainly less than 50%). If 1 other back breaks out, or if he even misses a few games to injury, (both of which are likely to happen) he won't make top 5. It makes even less sense for me to take your bet, since I have NEVER said that he was in my top 5.


You too.

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Postby MrTwo94 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:03 pm

What are you talking about? I don't ignore any arguments. You haven't even really made many and if you have, I've responded. You have spent most of our time here pining on the fact that I said Tiki isn't worth a first round pick.

As for the "improperly conveying" point... are you sure your IQ is above 50? I specifically said what I was talking about and you went off on another tangent. I will repeat. You took my sentence and made certain words bold to make it look like I was saying something I wasn't. But more importantly, I never said Tiki would not finish in the top 10 and you keep making it sound like I did. I said Tiki will probably finish in the bottom of the top 10 IF healthy. I also said that this does NOT warrant a first round pick given the low upside and the solid chance of busting. So why would I give you a straight up bet on something I never said?

So, if your primary goal was to hijack the debate that Tiki is overrated and get me to say that IF Tiki can stay healthy that he'll have a decent shot at finishing in the top 10, then sure, you've got it, but you have not gotten me to retract my statement that Tiki is not worth a first round pick.

Your argument that Tiki is a safe bet has already been covered. We both read the article showing that historically, a back with the kind of load he carried last season is in for a rough year the next season. That's w/o even taking into account his age. On the surface, he appears to be a safe bet but a little research reveals he is far from that. You are rolling the dice when you draft Tiki and for what? No upside and relatively high risk. So I stand by my original statement.

This is a quote by you:
I think I would probably take him after LJ, SA, LT, Portis, & SJax. And MABYE Edge. He's still a primary offensive weapon in a great offense, with no health problems, and loads of talent. He didn't look like he was anywhere close to slowing down last year, and I don't see anybody else that would be a safer bet. I'd bet we'll see 1600+ yards and 15+ TDs.

That's a laugher. So from that I've got him on your rankings at 1.06 and MAYBE 1.07. So why exactly would I give you the bet where you get him finishing anything above RB10? I'll certainly take the under bet straight up on that asinine projection of 1600+ yds and 15+ td's. How many guys w/o goal line carries get 15+ TD's in a season? I should've read that post more carefully so I could ignore the rest of your drivel.

So you got the satchel for the bet? He finished RB6 or better, you win. RB13 or worse and I win. I'm down if you want to throw in that over/under bet, too.
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Postby ampant » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:16 pm

Change it from RB6 to RB7 and it's a deal.

7th or better I win. RB13 or worse you win.
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Postby ampant » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:59 pm

1st, I apologize for the double-post. I meant to edit my previous post since MrTwo hadn't responded so as not to bump the thread. My mistake.

MrTwo94 wrote:You took my sentence and made certain words bold to make it look like I was saying something I wasn't.
I left your sentences intact. Making something bold doesn't change it's meaning. For example . . . MrTwo is a wanker. Mr.Two is a wanker. See? They both mean the same thing. B-)

WhinerTwo wrote:No fair! You aren't supposed to take my complete sentences and emphasize the parts that make me look stupid! It changes the meaning! :~(

All the bold formatting does is highlight the operative portions of your statement (which have objective meaning) with which I disagree. Am I not allowed to italicize either?

MrTwo94 wrote: I'll certainly take the under bet straight up on that asinine projection of 1600+ yds and 15+ td's.

I never offered that bet. In the interest of fairness, and since I (unlike you) am willing to admit when I have made a mistake. I admit that when I threw those TD stats out, I had just smoked a giant bowl of crack cocaine X-I .

MrTwo94 wrote:So you got the satchel for the bet?
I think it's funny that you are talking about satchel, when your original bet (even with the terms lopsided ridiculously in your favor) didn't even have any ramifications for the loser.

Tiki finishes 7th or better, I win. 13th or lower, you win. Standard Yahoo scoring. Loser accepts the sig consequences laid out earlier. I think anyone will agree that's more than fair, given we have already established that I put him at 6th/7th before this thread.

I'm not asking for any special dispensation in case of injury or any BS like that. There's a lot more crap that can happen during a season to knock Tiki out for the season than there are things which could improve his stats.
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Postby MrTwo94 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:19 pm

What happpened to that "MAYBE"? That sure sounded like a 1.06.2 ranking if I ever heard one... talk about no satchel. Nickel and diming me to death... I could do the same thing and claim RB12 instead of RB13 since S.Smith seems to be a consensus 1st rounder but I'll rise above and give you 1.07 and 1.12. So it is final, Tiki finished RB7 or better, you win. RB12 or worse and I win. But you're still a chicken either way for bumping it down to 1.07 after trying to bump it down to 1.10 earlier. Good thing you didn't edit your old post or I'd have had no idea you were weaseling your way down to 1.10 w/o warrant. But I won't consent to either of us writing our opinion is worthless or whatever. Despite the fact I felt some of the things you said were worthless, you did make some interesting observations which I must credit you for. I still want a crystal ball avatar. We can figure this stuff out over PM, I suppose.

EDIT: I didn't see the second post so I'm responding to it now...

If you are going to quote me, just quote me. Don't highlight bits and pieces of sentences. You italicize or bold words to convey emphasis on your words. Doing so to bits and pieces of someone else's quote can skew the direction of the words. One of the most important words of my sentence was the "IF" saying IF he can stay healthy. The injury risk is a big part of why not to draft him. You conveniently did not bold that word.

My original bet didn't have any ramifications in it bc I hadn't bothered to think that far. I wanted participation so I didn't want to scare anyone away with silly ramifications. I also wanted to simply make a point that his chances of busting were greater than his chances of living up to his ADP.

Of course you aren't asking for any injury clause in the bet. That would be ridiculous. That is a huge part of the reason not to draft him. It is stupid to even mention it like you are manning up by not requesting a clause.

How many of your 2300 posts (in less than one year) have NOT been affected by crack cocaine?
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Postby ampant » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:37 pm

MrTwo94 wrote: . . . talk about no satchel. . . . you're still a chicken either way . . .


MrTwo94 wrote: But I won't consent to either of us writing our opinion is worthless or whatever.


WTF? :-? Okay Captain Contradictory. What is a bet without the some form of payment?? For all the satchel talk, I can't believe you won't accept consequences! I am not sure, but the last time I checked there was a strong correllation between HAVING SATCHEL and LAYING SOMETHING ON THE LINE WHEN YOU MAKE A BET! You remind me a lot of a super-hero in the comics I read when I was a kid. . . Wonder Woman. (She didn't have any nuts either) ;-)

Hell, if I'm not going to have to risk anything, I might as well bet that Verron Haynes becomes the #1 rated QB in the NFL, and while I'm at it, I'll bet that Cookie Monster wins superbowl MVP as a placekicker, and makes the cover of Wheaties. ;-7 Somebody call Guiness, because I think we have just witnessed the biggest puss maneuver ever! :-t

I think I hit the nail square on the head when I said earlier that you were unable to admit when you were wrong. The thought of having a signature saying "My opinion is worthless" is just too much for your ego to bear. Like I said before, you made some good points, NOW SACK UP BOY! ;-D It's just a sig line.
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Postby MrTwo94 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:59 pm

You are the one jewing your ranking down. If that isn't a puss move, I don't know what is. If you had a satchel, you'd have accepted your real ranking of 1.06. :-t Anyway, I fully expect to win this bet. The phrasing seems a little bitter so I didn't want you to have to write it. For those not witnessing the bet, it will seem harsh but whatever. Excuse me for having pity on you. All I ever wanted was an avatar w/a crystal ball, but if you really want to be berated in your sig, so be it. Your loss. I'm about to own your sig.
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Postby ampant » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:59 am

MrTwo94 wrote: You are the one jewing your ranking down.
All kidding/football aside . . . what the hell was that comment about? (specifically referring your choice of racial/ethnic derogatory term). I think you ought to apologize to anybody who saw that and retract that statement ASAP. :-t There are better ways of arguing that don't make you look so low class/bigoted.

MrTwo94 wrote:
If that isn't a puss move, I don't know what is. If you had a satchel, you'd have accepted your real ranking of 1.06.
Whatever dude. You call it 1.6.2, . . . I round down, you round up. I noticed you didn't mind rounding up by about 40 when you commented on my number of posts.

MrTwo94 wrote:
Anyway, I fully expect to win this bet.
And I will fully expect you to ante up when you lose.

MrTwo94 wrote: The phrasing seems a little bitter so I didn't want you to have to write it. For those not witnessing the bet, it will seem harsh but whatever. Excuse me for having pity on you.
What are you talking about? Sure, I could lose the bet, but I honestly don't have the ego problem/air of superiority/fear of admitting wrong that you do. Losing wouldn't bother me nearly as much as you. IF I lose, and anybody asks me "what's up with the sig?" I'll tell them straight up that I lost a bet and had to own up (for a year).

MrTwo94 wrote: All I ever wanted was an avatar w/a crystal ball
All I wanted was a Pepsi.

MrTwo94 wrote: but if you really want to be berated in your sig, so be it. Your loss. I'm about to own your sig.
Not likely dude. You better pray for Tiki to miss some serious gametime due to an unlucky hit.

To everybody else, sorry if you didn't like this thread. At least I think some people managed to hear some good arguments liberally sprinkled with BS and hot air. I felt like the only way to get this bet done and rock-solid was in public. It was also the only way of making him sack up for a real bet with real consequences. In any case MrTwo, it's been mostly fun. I am glad at least that you have the nuts to put it on the line. We'll talk again after the season I'm sure, after I have won B-)

So it's settled. The terms are agreed to and the bet has been accepted by both parties. Objective reached . . . praise the lord. Honestly, I think it's the least we can do for the guys who took the time to read all this . . provide a little spectacle.

"We, who are about to die, salute you"
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