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Postby Madison » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:31 am

Back to the actual topic of this thread for a bit...........

Drhanl, you've already killed your own argument, and you will find very few people who agree with you here. How did you kill it? Right here:


drhanl wrote:But, if fantasy sports are games of chance, they are gambling, and regardless of the "fee" you are entitled to get some of it back.


Fantasy sports are not a game of chance, hence not gambling, means no lawsuit to file. If fantasy football was a game of "chance", most of us would not play. If you're in a 10 team league, you do not automatically have a 10% shot at winning the league. Could be more, could be less, all revolves around the skill level of the person playing, and skill is what determines the winners from losers in fantasy sports, not "chance".




Now I'll get into what the guys are trying to tell you, and just use easy to understand numbers. If someone signs up for a 12 team league where there's a $100 entry fee per team (times 12 teams is $1,200 total paid in), and a payout structure of 1st=$300, 2nd=$200, 3rd=$100 (total of $600 paid out - 50% of what went in) posted, and the person elects to play the league and winds up not cashing, then why should they get back a nickel? They knew the structure and how it was set up before they chose to spend one red cent.

They should get half their entry fee back for being stupid, and under a false flag of "gambling"? For me personally, that's insane to even think someone would consider something like that, which is why lawyers are hated so much in America. They sue on behalf of people who are too stupid to make their own decisions, and attempt to twist the law in the process. I'm not a fan of that at all. It's not like someone took a pill the doctor gave them that wound up destroying their liver, when the ingredients and side effects didn't have any liver problems listed. In that case, the person didn't know, couldn't be expected to know, and should be compensated financially for the damage. In the case above, if someone's too stupid to not play a league where the payout is only 50% of what went in, they don't need a lawyer to try to twist the law and save their stupid butts, they need to learn from the experience and not be as stupid in the future.

So like I said, very few people will agree with either of your points. Stupid people should not be saved from their stupidity, and fantasy sports is not a game of "chance", so it is not gambling.

Case Closed. *Bangs Gavel*
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Postby Crippler » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:42 am

drhanl wrote:Let me say again. 1.5 billion dollars!

site maintenance fee? or rich people getting richer?

absolutely they are entitled to a site maintenance fee. what got me interested in this whole subject was wanting to start my own site. seems like everyone else is making money, why not me. But, if fantasy sports are games of chance, they are gambling, and regardless of the "fee" you are entitled to get some of it back.



The very very VERY tiny amount of interest that your first post gave me just went out the window. At first it seemed like maybe you were serious about this, but it quickly turned into "They have money, I want some too....without doing anything".

As you say, this is a 1.5 Billion dollar industry. You're talking about suing ESPN and CBS. Dont you think that these huge companies may have spent a few minutes researching this to make sure it was legal before investing their mega$$$ into it? No, I'm sure they went in with zero prior research of the law in order to get sued and completely screw themselves over...they are THAT stupid. Its not like they have big names to protect or anything.

Why not try to sue the local carnival? They take your money when you play their games of chance. Maybe you can get some free cotton candy or a stuffed bear that you didnt earn.

I cant stand people who believe that life is just a handout. Go research the law for 3 or 4 minutes before you get laughed out of a courtroom. Better yet, try to earn a living the honest way instead of searching for a handout by suing someone with more money than yourself.

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Postby flotsamnjetsam » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:05 am

drhanl wrote:No offense dude, but you are an idiot. i am reading your replies and I agree with about 95% of what you are saying. But, evidentally you are not reading my replies because you don't understand that I am agreeing with you on 95% of what you say.

The difference in our opinion, is that I say, playing a fantasy league that has prizes is a game of chance, that makes it gambling. You obviously disagree. There is a big difference in me buying milk and the milkman making profit and me giving money into a pot and a website making profit. One is legal, the other, really isn't. But, because we all love fantasy football, myself included, nothing is done about it. But, it is gambling, like it or not.

I AM NOT CRYING!!!!!!! this has nothing to do with me!!!!!!!!!! This is why i call you an idiot, because you are not reading what I am writing!!!!!!! I don't care if ESPN makes a lot of money. I don't care if the milkman makes a lot of money. I don't care if a lawyer makes a lot of money because he knows the law. So, I told this guy I would try to help him find some plaintiffs. So, i started a thread.




HELLO!!!!!!!!!!
This is america, profit is what its all about. If they didnt make a profit off those sites, then the wouldnt exist. You think that when you pay $40 a month for internet service someone isnt makeing a profit off of it? How about when you go buy a gallon of milk, you think someone is making a profit off of it?

You bet your ass they are. If not for profit, half of the crap most people take for granted wouldnt exist. Everything that has been invented all throughout history was created with 2 motives. 1 is for whatever convinience that product provides. the 2nd reason is because someone thought to themselves, hey, i bet i can sell this and make money off of it. If not for that, the person would have just created whatever it was and not made any more.

The same thing applies here. When ESPN has a website for fantasy football, it doesnt just magically appear. They have to hire programmers, and web designers, and all sorts of other stuff, plus the advertising costs, etc. You think they would go to all that trouble if they werent going to make a profit off of it? Hell no they wouldnt.

Alot of us pay good money for fantasy sites that have NO PAYOUT at all, The cost is just to use the site. Why do we do that? because those sites offer features that the free ones dont. We are paying for a product, not gambleing on ESPN.

Fantasy Football sites are not sites that everyone is entitles to have access to. Its a privledge that someone went out of their way to create a website that allows us to do fantasy football online. If that person wants to make a profit off it, so what. Because if not for the profit, that site probably wouldnt exist.

so stop your crying
[/quote]


I've lost a lot of money over the years playing Lotto which is technically gambling. I guess I should sue all the states that I played Lotto in for the past 20 years and get 1/2 my money back. :-t

This lawsuit is a complete joke. If you don't like the site getting any of the money then don't play your league on that site. But don't cry after you lost and demand some of your money back. What a joke. :-t
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Postby drhanl » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:30 am

Madison wrote:Back to the actual topic of this thread for a bit...........

Drhanl, you've already killed your own argument, and you will find very few people who agree with you here. How did you kill it? Right here:


drhanl wrote:But, if fantasy sports are games of chance, they are gambling, and regardless of the "fee" you are entitled to get some of it back.


Fantasy sports are not a game of chance, hence not gambling, means no lawsuit to file. If fantasy football was a game of "chance", most of us would not play. If you're in a 10 team league, you do not automatically have a 10% shot at winning the league. Could be more, could be less, all revolves around the skill level of the person playing, and skill is what determines the winners from losers in fantasy sports, not "chance".




Now I'll get into what the guys are trying to tell you, and just use easy to understand numbers. If someone signs up for a 12 team league where there's a $100 entry fee per team (times 12 teams is $1,200 total paid in), and a payout structure of 1st=$300, 2nd=$200, 3rd=$100 (total of $600 paid out - 50% of what went in) posted, and the person elects to play the league and winds up not cashing, then why should they get back a nickel? They knew the structure and how it was set up before they chose to spend one red cent.

They should get half their entry fee back for being stupid, and under a false flag of "gambling"? For me personally, that's insane to even think someone would consider something like that, which is why lawyers are hated so much in America. They sue on behalf of people who are too stupid to make their own decisions, and attempt to twist the law in the process. I'm not a fan of that at all. It's not like someone took a pill the doctor gave them that wound up destroying their liver, when the ingredients and side effects didn't have any liver problems listed. In that case, the person didn't know, couldn't be expected to know, and should be compensated financially for the damage. In the case above, if someone's too stupid to not play a league where the payout is only 50% of what went in, they don't need a lawyer to try to twist the law and save their stupid butts, they need to learn from the experience and not be as stupid in the future.

So like I said, very few people will agree with either of your points. Stupid people should not be saved from their stupidity, and fantasy sports is not a game of "chance", so it is not gambling.

Case Closed. *Bangs Gavel*


Madison,

Thank you for getting back to the point. You are correct, skill is involved in fantasy football. If you draft ron dayne with the first pick, you have very little skill and will not win. This gives the game we love an aspect of skill. If you play black jack and hit on 20 every time, you will lose. This gives black jack an aspect of skill. But, if you draft LT or LJ or whoever as the first pick, and he gets turf toe in week 2 and is out for a month and a half, it gains an aspect of chance. You had no control over this injury, no way of forseeing this outcome, the point system which judges who wins and loses does not adjust because of your loss. It was just "bad luck." There is definitely chance involved, and if there is, it is legally gambling, by the definition of gambling.

For your other point, I understand completely the way pay outs work, etc. I understand completely that people are responsible for their actions. I am saying there is a law that allows people to recover gambling loss. I'm not saying everyone should jump on this bandwagon. I started a thread because if there was one person out there that wanted to, it would help this friend.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:17 am

ampant wrote:
drhanl wrote:I'm saying, by law, people from these states can recover money lost gambling.


OK. Thats a crappy law. So, . . . let me get this straight . . . people break the law by gambling illegally, then they can use the law to get their money back if they lose? Does the gambling site get their money back if somebody from Georgia wins?

Most lawyers suck. :-t

onnestabe wrote:I feel an ampant bet coming on here....


LOL - I don't have anything left to bet. I already put my avatar and sig on the line. Although if I were from Georgia I suppose I could just hide behind the law. ;-)


actually...if you read the fine print in Sportslines's Pay leagues, there are several states that are inelegible to win any cash prizes.

CBSSportsline Official Rules wrote:NOTE: There are no prizes awarded to Basic or Silver league winners.

*CBS SportsLine.com Fantasy Baseball Gold is open to registered users of a qualified CBS network site, 18 years of age or older who are legal residents of the fifty (50) United States (for purposes of clarity, Puerto Rico is expressly excluded), Washington D.C. and Canada (excluding Quebec) PLEASE NOTE: Notwithstanding the foregoing: (i) eligible legal residents of Arizona, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, and Vermont may play Fantasy Baseball Gold or Fantasy Baseball Silver, but are not eligible to win any prizes; and (ii) in all events you must be eighteen (18) years of age or older (if the age of majority in a jurisdiction is over 18, you must be of the age of majority within your jurisdiction) in order to win any prizes.

*CBS SportsLine.com Fantasy Baseball Platinum, Diamond and Double Diamond are open to registered users of a qualified CBS network site, 18 years of age or older who are legal residents of the fifty (50) United States (excluding residents of Arizona, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, and Vermont) (for purposes of clarity, Puerto Rico is expressly excluded), Washington D.C. and Canada (excluding Quebec) (if the age of majority in a jurisdiction is different than 18, you must be of the age of majority within your jurisdiction)

*All CBS SportsLine.com Fantasy Baseball games are subject to complete applicable Official Rules. Void where prohibited.


i've played in these leagues in the past before i was able to get a homeboy league going...to get your money you have to fill out a form, get it notarized and send it in before you get your check

oh yeah, anything over a certian amount you get reported to the IRS and haev to pay taxes on

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Postby Madison » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:40 am

drhanl wrote:Madison,

Thank you for getting back to the point. You are correct, skill is involved in fantasy football. If you draft ron dayne with the first pick, you have very little skill and will not win. This gives the game we love an aspect of skill. If you play black jack and hit on 20 every time, you will lose. This gives black jack an aspect of skill. But, if you draft LT or LJ or whoever as the first pick, and he gets turf toe in week 2 and is out for a month and a half, it gains an aspect of chance. You had no control over this injury, no way of forseeing this outcome, the point system which judges who wins and loses does not adjust because of your loss. It was just "bad luck." There is definitely chance involved, and if there is, it is legally gambling, by the definition of gambling.

For your other point, I understand completely the way pay outs work, etc. I understand completely that people are responsible for their actions. I am saying there is a law that allows people to recover gambling loss. I'm not saying everyone should jump on this bandwagon. I started a thread because if there was one person out there that wanted to, it would help this friend.


What you seem to be leaving out is that a well skilled fantasy manager can lose his #1 overall draft pick and still win the league. The odds of a skilled manager losing his #1 overall pick and still winning the league, is far greater than someone hitting with 20 safely in blackjack. I've seen it done more times than I can count, and it will continue to happen. Just because an injury happens, that doesn't result in that manager losing. Not to mention that if you hit a duece or better while holding 20 in blackjack, you lose. There's no way to fix it, no way around it, the game is over and you lose. Fantasy sports is not that way. You always have options to choose from, moves you can make, trades you can pull off, etc. Losing your #1 overall pick does not equal losing. Busting in blackjack is losing, no way around it. Two completely different things you are trying to compare.

There are variables to anything in life, fantasy sports is no different, but everything in life does not constitute gambling. If I get in my car and drive somewhere, there's a chance that I get hit and killed by some idiot on the road. Does that make driving a game of chance? Of course not. Fantasy sports is no different. It is not a game of chance, therefore it is not gambling.

Your definition of what constitutes gambling is amazingly wrong. According to this:

drhanl wrote:There is definitely chance involved, and if there is, it is legally gambling, by the definition of gambling.


Living is a gamble, since a bolt of lightning hitting someone could constitute chance. Is living gambling? Of course not, but according to your definition it does. If there's some state out there who will pay half of what I've spent living my life to my survivors because I lost a game of chance against nature, I need to move there. See how silly it looks? Any judge worth his salt, laughs at the whole idea of fantasy sports as gambling, tosses the prosecutor out on his rear end, and charges the prosecutor for the costs of attempting to waste the court's time and the taxpayer's money.

Now if there is a law to help stupid people get part of the money back that they stupidly throw away, then whatever state, or states, have that law, need to get their head(s) examined and re-evaluate their highly flawed attempt at a legal system. Disguising fantasy sports expenses as gambling losses, is absurd beyond belief, and if any judge out there falls for that garbage, he should be removed from the bench immediately, and his ruling overturned by someone who's at least got half a brain.

And don't get me started on the lawyers who are willing to lie (yeah, I said lie, no other way to put it really) in the pathetic attempt to make money off of something as ridiculous as calling fantasy sports gambling.
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Postby J_rob_the_ Baller » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:36 am

drhanl wrote:There is definitely chance involved, and if there is, it is legally gambling, by the definition of gambling.


There is also the chance that you could go to a resturaunt and eat some undercooked meat and get food poisoning from it. Does that make it gambling.

I dont think you truely understand the definition of gambling. It is the act of betting on the outcome of an event that you have no control over. In fantasy football, you have control. You choose who to put in your starting roster. The highly skilled players know how to build a team that can handle injuries. Its not a game of chance that depends on whatever the next card is.


AND, you didnt answer this. What sites pay out actual cash payments? because a league where you win non cash prizes, such as ipods, xbox, even giftcards, are totally different as far as the law is concerned. It is viewed as a promotional giveaway, since the sites giving it away probably had it donated or got a good deal on it as an advertisment gimmick for that particular product. Winning a prize and winning cash are totally different in the eyes of the law.

So, why dont you tell your lawyer freind to give it up and go find someone who spilled hot coffee on themselves.
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Postby PyRo8 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:08 pm

lol this is all really funny
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Postby J_rob_the_ Baller » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:36 pm

yeah, i dont think the guy who posted it realized what he was in for by doing so.
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Postby socceryank » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:27 am

Isn't the intended purpose of this thread against the forum rules? Why are we letting this guy solicit business for his lawyer buddy to attack the very sites we use to enjoy our hobby? Why was this even allowed to be posted? This guy was given free advice by a lawyer for his own gain, and now is drumming up business to reciprocate. Not what the forum is about.

As for the lawyer's intention, he is just justifying the stereotypes of lawyers.

I don't see any justification for the case at all, and personally would be embarrassed to even think of taking part in it.

Come to think of it, do I need to put a monetary value on my Yahoo trophy so I can claim it on my taxes?
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