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Need some serious help to settle a dispute in my keeper

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Postby FatFoot » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Is this a money league?

There is no way to guarantee a competitive league with 2 owners taking over crappy ghosted teams from last year, and all of the other teams keeping 4 players. I just don't think you can do it. You can SURELY have fun running one of those 2 teams, but I don't think you can compete with the older teams in this league, and I don't think that will balance itself out for a few seasons.

In my opinion, the only way you can really make it truly fair for new owners joining a keeper league where they're taking over wrecks of teams, is to do a redraft. The compromise would be to let teams keep one or 2 players, but even that seems unnecessary. I know it sucks to say that... but A). why are people afraid to have to actually draft in a real league? And B). how would you get teams to want to take over teams, when the cards are stacked against them so severely? The only people who are going to jump at taking over one of those 2 keeper teams are new to FF, generally. I guess this is only really significant if it's a money league. But at that point, I think it's a really big deal. Look at your draft charts, and erase the top 50 players. Now how badly do you want to play, when you know there's a team in the league that has Peyton, LJ, Holt, etc all on one team, and you're going to end up with Rivers, Lundy, and Roy Williams?

In my opinion, keepers are RUINED by ghosted teams. It's the kind of problem that I think is difficult to overcome.
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Postby lmcjaho » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:49 pm

FatFoot wrote:In my opinion, the only way you can really make it truly fair for new owners joining a keeper league where they're taking over wrecks of teams, is to do a redraft. The compromise would be to let teams keep one or 2 players, but even that seems unnecessary. I know it sucks to say that... but A). why are people afraid to have to actually draft in a real league?


I am going to make an assumption here, and it might be off base, but from your question I assume you have never been in a keeper league where you drafted/traded/built for the future despite the hit it might have caused in the season you made the moves, correct? How would you like it if one season you traded a stud or two away because he was getting old and you thought a younger guy would outplay him the next year, sacrificing your chances at that year's title in exchange for a big jump on the competition in the next, only to have the league turn around and force you to dump your stud the next year and redraft from scratch - ESPECIALLY if the younger stud turned out to be as good or better than you projected and instead he ended up on some other guy's team?

FatFoot wrote:And B). how would you get teams to want to take over teams, when the cards are stacked against them so severely? The only people who are going to jump at taking over one of those 2 keeper teams are new to FF, generally. I guess this is only really significant if it's a money league. But at that point, I think it's a really big deal. Look at your draft charts, and erase the top 50 players. Now how badly do you want to play, when you know there's a team in the league that has Peyton, LJ, Holt, etc all on one team, and you're going to end up with Rivers, Lundy, and Roy Williams?

In my opinion, keepers are RUINED by ghosted teams. It's the kind of problem that I think is difficult to overcome.


There are multiple solutions to this problem. My personal favorite is to give the new guys the choice of keeping from their possibly crap teams or dumping them all and starting over from a mini-draft for the same number of rounds as the rest of the league has keepers before the regular draft. Chances are that there will be enough value left over in the rejects to start a decent squad, and building your team from a loser to a winner is a great challenge that makes things fun.

----------------------------------------------------

To the original poster - I would stick with the snake draft, but give the new guys the option of not keeping all 3 (or 4) and instead dumping as many as they want and then mini-drafting from the whole player base before the first round until they have 3 keepers to start with. Taking Jamal Lewis with your first pick and then having to wait 19 picks to go again is VERY different from taking him and then also picking first overall, but the rest of the league should not be too upset since they SHOULD have keepers that are as strong or better already anyhow.
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Postby FatFoot » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:28 pm

Your assumption is correct, and IMO your idea is excellent. I wouldn't have thought of that.
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Postby stepsinsc » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:57 am

Thanks for the thoughts...

It is a money league. If a snake is the norm, then we'll do that. I'm contemplating just subsidizing the new owner's teams - letting them play for free this year, while the other 10 of us will pay a little more to make the pot the same, in hopes that after this year the 2 new owners can field competitive teams. I'll also throw out there the idea of changing their keepers in a supplement draft prior to the main draft.

Kensat, there's no need for that kind of condescension and dickheadedness. If you felt I should do snake, you can say so and state your reasons without being a jerk. We have a unique situation given the fact that the 2 new owners have taken over teams that were completely neglected last year, and are seriously behind in terms of keeper quality. Even doing a full straight draft could simply not make these teams competitive in the upcoming year.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:05 am

Snake it...they may have a crappy year but if they are good owners they can overcome it for next year

do you guys allow trading of future draft picks...becasue that can definately help a sub-par team get better for next year
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Re: Need some serious help to settle a dispute in my keeper

Postby Matthias » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:25 am

Kensat30 wrote:Simple question, who says the champion of the league has the best keepers and the last place finisher has the worst keepers. Chances are THEY DON'T.


Well, I don't know about the champion's keepers but the OP already established that the last place finishers DO have the worst keepers.

Kensat30 wrote:Or maybe it's just an opportunity for the teams who happened to do crappy last year to gain a huge advantage over the teams that did well last year? I know in my leagues sometimes 1 win can seperate about 6 rankings in the standing. Now answer this: how much better is the #3 pick in this system versus the #9 pick.


Not a whole heck of a lot. Because you're starting in round five. I'm not saying this is perfect, but I plugged in the 3rd pick vs. the 9th pick for eight rounds into the draft pick trade analyzer at http://www.kffl.com/draftanalyzer/index.php and specified 48 keepers. The total values were 8,468 vs. 7,819. Not a significant difference. If you snake those 8 rounds the total difference changes to 8,132 vs. 8,042 still in favor of the 3rd pick. To give some sort of perspective, the value difference between the 1st pick and the 12th pick overall (no keepers) is 6,000 vs. 4,195.

The difference that we're talking about is drafting 4th in the even rounds vs. 9th. Starting at round 6. At that point, it really becomes mostly a matter of personal preference versus clear-cut choices.

Kensat30 wrote:WAH. If you can't field a decent team in a measly 3 keeper league without stacking the deck hugely in your favor, then you must resemble the NYGiant fan guy on the NFL Network commercials.


It really isn't that big of a deal.

Kensat30 wrote:Another owner who doesn't understand the vast difference between a snaking and non-snaking draft. If you don't understand the difference between pick 37/49/61/etc versus pick 48/60/72etc, you my friend do not understand fantasy football.


Maybe I don't. I certainly don't have the depth of player evaluation that you have. But some things I think I get. And using the pick analyzer above, the total values for the 1st pick vs. the 12th in a non-snake with 48 keepers is 8,714 & 7,508. And again, the difference between only the first pick overall versus the 12th pick overall (Tomlinson vs. a bad keeper) is 6,000 vs. 4,195. In other words, it's better to have a #1 keeper and pick last at every round of a draft that starts at round 5 than to have a #12 keeper and pick first.

But you don't need some guy's draft values to tell you that. Think about the jumbled players starting in round 5. You're basically picking off the third tier of WRs, the last tier of starting RBs and the first tier of significant backups, the second tier of QBs, the second to third tier of TEs, and all the Ks & Ds. As far as clear-cut value, it's pretty tough. You're drafting who you personally like to have upside and as a sleeper rather than a defined list. Is it better to be drafting at the beginning of round 8 rather than the end? Sure. But I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I think the snake draft is something fantasy footballers hold on to as a matter of faith rather than as a matter of reason.
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Re: Need some serious help to settle a dispute in my keeper

Postby gablefan » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:14 pm

Matthias wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Simple question, who says the champion of the league has the best keepers and the last place finisher has the worst keepers. Chances are THEY DON'T.



The Champ in our Keeper league last year has Larry Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Carson Palmer, Antonio Gates and Chris Chambers.....
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Postby Kilroy » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:44 pm

Give the two new owners a supplemental pick each and then snake it.
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Postby Timbathia » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:44 pm

Just a potential thought or alternative.

In our keeper league we use a snaking draft, but have a 1 round rookie draft before it, with the worst team picking first. Its a competitive balance draft and since there are generally a couple of decent running backs in every NFL draft each year it gives the poor teams a chance to snag a future superstar talent.
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Re: Need some serious help to settle a dispute in my keeper

Postby Timbathia » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:47 pm

gablefan wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Simple question, who says the champion of the league has the best keepers and the last place finisher has the worst keepers. Chances are THEY DON'T.



The Champ in our Keeper league last year has Larry Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Carson Palmer, Antonio Gates and Chris Chambers.....


We have the other end of the spectrum. The tool that won last year has Gates, Brady, Julius Jones and Driver. Still scratching my head.
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