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Please Define: Veto

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Postby Matthias » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:50 am

dgan wrote:This is so simple, I don't know what the big deal is. Everyone puts different values on different players. Why don't you veto bad draft picks? If someone selects Jake Plummer in the second round, why not veto that and make them pick again?


There really should be a, "Veto" sticky because all the same arguments get rolled out each time and I have to make all the same corrections each time.

You don't veto draft picks because someone drafting like an idiot doesn't favor any one team over the others. It doesn't create league imbalance. It just means that you have one team that sucks. All you've basically done is turned your 12-team league into an 11-teamer. Whereas if someone drafts reasonably well, and then trades their first round draft pick for someone else's normal 8th rounder, one team now has received two first round picks. That affects league balance in a way that a bad drafter does not.

Kilroy1872 wrote:Trades involving collusion usually aren't very hard to spot. (Example, 2 Years ago an owner in my $$ League traded Willis McGahee to a buddy's team who had a better record...For a Kicker.)


That's more than collusion. That's collusion amongst idiots. What about Tomlinson for Brian Westbrook? Or Larry Fitzgerald and Steven Jackson for Antonio Bryant and Laurence Maroney (in a non-keeper)? All you're basically saying is they have to make it not to awfully terrible that you can find some way to justify it. And incidentally, last year on here I did a poll if people believed that, pre-draft, someone should veto a trade of the first 4 rounds of their draft picks for someone else's picks in rounds 5-8. And overwhelmingly, the Cafe voted not to veto. Not to veto a trade that made 0 sense.

People can yap yap yap all they want about it's their team, don't mess with it, yadda, yadda, yadda. But in my league, it's their team in my league. They can run their team however they like subject to me making sure my league is run how I like it. And as I've said above, I've never vetoed a trade as commissioner. But I would if I saw some nonsense going on. Especially if it involved a rookie owner.
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Postby spodog » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:03 am

DrSpackle wrote:I agree. Trades should only be vetoed when collusion is obviously at hand. I guess that begs the question, "When is it obviously collusion?" I guess you gotta trust your gut instincts on that.


Collusion only. Absolutely.

Our primary $ league has been at it for 14 years and NEVER vetoed a single trade.

Seems that a lot of commishes in the cafe over-do this veto topic and apparently a lot of manipulation are being disguised as VETO's.
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Postby Kilroy » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:09 am

Matthias wrote:People can yap yap yap all they want about it's their team, don't mess with it, yadda, yadda, yadda. But in my league, it's their team in my league. They can run their team however they like subject to me making sure my league is run how I like it. And as I've said above, I've never vetoed a trade as commissioner. But I would if I saw some nonsense going on. Especially if it involved a rookie owner.


Well if you want to be certain that no owners screw up your league with their pesky individuality and opinions why don't you just create a League where you you run all the teams. That way it will be perfect.
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Postby dgan » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:30 am

Kilroy1872 wrote:
Well if you want to be certain that no owners screw up your league with their pesky individuality and opinions why don't you just create a League where you you run all the teams. That way it will be perfect.


;-D

Some Commish are just power hungry, it would seem to me. As soon as you subject all trades to your opinion, you are overriding the owner's opinions, hampering their ability to run THEIR team. It may be your league, but the owners pay you to be in it...I suggest running a free league if you are not going to allow owners to manage their own investment the way they please.

In fact, the only reason collusion is guarded against is you don't want one owner guaranteeing to pay another part of the winnings if they do a particular trade. If money isn't changing hands, it isn't collusion and it should NOT be vetoed.

If you want to protect "rookie" owners, suggest that they ask other owners for their opinion BEFORE submitting the trade request rather than after.

I just can't believe the power-mongering. It's worse than David Stern.
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Postby Matthias » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:11 am

Kilroy1872 wrote:
Matthias wrote:People can yap yap yap all they want about it's their team, don't mess with it, yadda, yadda, yadda. But in my league, it's their team in my league. They can run their team however they like subject to me making sure my league is run how I like it. And as I've said above, I've never vetoed a trade as commissioner. But I would if I saw some nonsense going on. Especially if it involved a rookie owner.


Well if you want to be certain that no owners screw up your league with their pesky individuality and opinions why don't you just create a League where you you run all the teams. That way it will be perfect.


Yes, well, I could say the same to you that if you want to make sure that you join a league where those pesky commissioners don't ruin it for you. Or other pesky owners shoot down your trades.

I haven't seen anyone yet propose a league where you have no trade review. So you either have to have trades reviewed by a commissioner or by a league vote. And based on my experience and what I've read, league votes don't work very well. Because another owner is entitled to veto a trade for any reason. And it just turns into everybody is vetoing everything. Whereas I've never vetoed anything. I just hold back the right if something looks fishy or out of sorts.

Because, yes, by joining a league you're accepting its rules. I've heard ad nauseum about screwy scoring systems, "Well, that's the rules. You can't change it now." Well, in my league my commissioner veto is one of the rules. In a game of chess, you can do anything you like with your pieces, subject to constraints. You can't move a knight like a queen or a pawn like a knight. So your freedom of action is constrained by a common understanding. And part of that common understanding in the leagues that I play in is that the commissioner has the power of veto.
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Postby Matthias » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:14 am

dgan wrote:It may be your league, but the owners pay you to be in it...I suggest running a free league if you are not going to allow owners to manage their own investment the way they please.


I pay taxes yet I don't direct my government.

I pay my cable bill yet I still don't get Starz.

I get precisely out of each that which was promised I would receive for the amount that I paid.

If you want an, "investment" go to Wall Street. If you want competition where the winner gets a prize, then you can pay my league fee.
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