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Ronnie Brown the problem in Miami???

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Postby TheRawDAWG » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:07 am

deacon wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
bklik wrote:
deacon wrote:Have any of you actually watched the Dolphins play? I can't lay much blame on Brown yet. In the 3 games that I have watched he appears to be getting the maximum production out of the situation he is put in. The biggest problem with the running game is the coaches. They are not giving the run game a chance to excel.
Brown had 26 carries against Ten but other than that game has had 15, 15, 12, and 17 carries. When the run game is not producing the only way to get it to work is to keep pounding.

It is what Min is doing with Chester. His blocking etc. is no better than Browns but Min commits to the run and keeps running and running and running regardless of the ypc. Eventually the D gets worn out and running becomes easier but you can't tire out a D line with 12 carries a game.


Hutch
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Exactly. To compare Chester's blocking to Ronnie's is outrageous. Also, when you look at guys who did well behind terrible o-lines (oh like LT) they usually had something like a great blocking FB (say, Neal) going for them. Ronnie's got nothing, and his coach won't even give the run a chance.

First the o-line, 2nd the OC, 3rd Saban, then Ronnie are to blame.


Just because you know the O-line players and the fact that they were past pro bowl blockers doesn't make them a great line right now! Once again people please watch the games and don't just focus on the personnel.

Right now Chester Taylor has a 3.8 ypc average. These are the teams that have a lower ypc average: Jets, Cle, Det, Az, Hou, GB, Balt, Sea.
What is the common denomonator here? Bad O-line blocking!

With this being a fantasy forum I understand that many of you draw conclusions based on stats alone but as we all know stats only tell part of the story. I base my analysis on the fact that I have watched Minnesota and Miami play so the comparison is not ludicrous.

So here is what is happening in Minn:

1 - the line is doing a fantastic job of opening holes but the RB is falling down and not gaining much

2 - the line is not opening holes and the RB is being stuffed at or just beyond the line

What seems more plausible to you?

The Miami O-line is horrible but the Minnesota O-line is not the powerhouse (not yet anyway) that many of you think they are.

Miami is averaging 84 yards rushing per game, with 27 rushes per
Minnesota is averaging 104 yds per game, with 21 rushes per.

Let's see...6 more rushes per game at 3.8 ypc means about 21 more yard per game which is the difference between these two teams average ypg. Hmmm, seems to me like the Minnesota O-line is performing about the same as the Miami O-line.

But I guess I don't know what I am talking about.

But I guess



Wow, this is SO full of holes it's funny.

First off like someone else said you don't take in to consideration the reverse plays that Miami has done. Then you don't even take into consideration the 2 different backs in the situations.

It looks to me like you are the one hung up on stats. It's just you're hung up on team stats. You're argument basically says anyone, including me, could be behind any line in the NFL and put up the same stats as the RB currently there because it's all about the Oline. This just simply isn't true. If a RB is impatient they are going to run into defenders before their blockers get there. Alot of rushing is vision and patience. If the back doesn't have it he's not going to excel.

These guys have a name because they have earned the name. These guys aren't Larry Allen going to Pro bowls because of how good they were. These guys are in the prie of their careers. Hutch is probably the best gaurd in football. Him by himself makes your argument ridiculous. Add in Richardson (possibly the best blocking FB) and Birk And McKinnie and well...you see where this leaves us.... Also, what about the pass protection? Miami's line is allowing sacks at a record pace. Does that not affect the run game?I think it does.
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby skinsfan » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Brown fights for nearly every yard he can get. Like when Ricky Williams played behind that line and somehow got 1800 yards or so on a YPC average near 4.0, possibly lower.
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Postby deacon » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:39 pm

TheRawDAWG wrote:
deacon wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
bklik wrote:
deacon wrote:Have any of you actually watched the Dolphins play? I can't lay much blame on Brown yet. In the 3 games that I have watched he appears to be getting the maximum production out of the situation he is put in. The biggest problem with the running game is the coaches. They are not giving the run game a chance to excel.
Brown had 26 carries against Ten but other than that game has had 15, 15, 12, and 17 carries. When the run game is not producing the only way to get it to work is to keep pounding.

It is what Min is doing with Chester. His blocking etc. is no better than Browns but Min commits to the run and keeps running and running and running regardless of the ypc. Eventually the D gets worn out and running becomes easier but you can't tire out a D line with 12 carries a game.


Hutch
Richardson


Exactly. To compare Chester's blocking to Ronnie's is outrageous. Also, when you look at guys who did well behind terrible o-lines (oh like LT) they usually had something like a great blocking FB (say, Neal) going for them. Ronnie's got nothing, and his coach won't even give the run a chance.

First the o-line, 2nd the OC, 3rd Saban, then Ronnie are to blame.


Just because you know the O-line players and the fact that they were past pro bowl blockers doesn't make them a great line right now! Once again people please watch the games and don't just focus on the personnel.

Right now Chester Taylor has a 3.8 ypc average. These are the teams that have a lower ypc average: Jets, Cle, Det, Az, Hou, GB, Balt, Sea.
What is the common denomonator here? Bad O-line blocking!

With this being a fantasy forum I understand that many of you draw conclusions based on stats alone but as we all know stats only tell part of the story. I base my analysis on the fact that I have watched Minnesota and Miami play so the comparison is not ludicrous.

So here is what is happening in Minn:

1 - the line is doing a fantastic job of opening holes but the RB is falling down and not gaining much

2 - the line is not opening holes and the RB is being stuffed at or just beyond the line

What seems more plausible to you?

The Miami O-line is horrible but the Minnesota O-line is not the powerhouse (not yet anyway) that many of you think they are.

Miami is averaging 84 yards rushing per game, with 27 rushes per
Minnesota is averaging 104 yds per game, with 21 rushes per.

Let's see...6 more rushes per game at 3.8 ypc means about 21 more yard per game which is the difference between these two teams average ypg. Hmmm, seems to me like the Minnesota O-line is performing about the same as the Miami O-line.

But I guess I don't know what I am talking about.

But I guess



Wow, this is SO full of holes it's funny.

First off like someone else said you don't take in to consideration the reverse plays that Miami has done. Then you don't even take into consideration the 2 different backs in the situations.

It looks to me like you are the one hung up on stats. It's just you're hung up on team stats. You're argument basically says anyone, including me, could be behind any line in the NFL and put up the same stats as the RB currently there because it's all about the Oline. This just simply isn't true. If a RB is impatient they are going to run into defenders before their blockers get there. Alot of rushing is vision and patience. If the back doesn't have it he's not going to excel.

These guys have a name because they have earned the name. These guys aren't Larry Allen going to Pro bowls because of how good they were. These guys are in the prie of their careers. Hutch is probably the best gaurd in football. Him by himself makes your argument ridiculous. Add in Richardson (possibly the best blocking FB) and Birk And McKinnie and well...you see where this leaves us.... Also, what about the pass protection? Miami's line is allowing sacks at a record pace. Does that not affect the run game?I think it does.


Well I didn't want to go point for point on this because of fear of highjacking the thread but I can't let you piss on my comments like they are garbage.

I didn't take reverse yards into consideration because this was a comparison of Chester Taylors 3.8 yards per carry to Ronnie Brown's 3.9 yards per carry. A receiver running a reverse does not affect those numbers.

As I stated I am not hung up on stats but fantasy people understand stats. When in France, speak french if you want to be understood. In a fantasy forum use stats to demonstrate a point. My argument makes no inference about your or any other backs potential production with a given O-line. How you could extrapolate that information out of what I posted shows me that you have a very robust imagination. If you truly think that a RB in the NFL does not have vision and patience then you are truly only living in a fantasy world. This is the NFL not your local rec league. Even the worst back in the history of the NFL still has good vision and patience.

Hutch is a tackle first of all! A good O-line is better than the sum of its parts. This means that you can't just take the absolute best players at each position and put them together and expect them to be the best. An O-line has to work together as a unit not a group of individuals. They have to instinctually know each others tendancies, movements, characteristics, abilities, etc. This does not happen overnight. Let me give you an example:
Look at the best O-lines in college. They are comprised of juniors and seniors. Not because they are only good as junior and seniors but because they have worked together for 3 or 4 years and have become cohesive. You will never see a dominant college O-line made up of freshman and sophmores no matter how talented they are.
Minn added Hutch this year and it will take some time before he develops cohesion and that O-line becomes a solid unit that performs together.

You named the offensive linemen and then your point is "you see where this leaves us". Yes I see it leaves us knowing that we can call on you when there is a trivia question about who the Minn O linemen are.

Lastly you don't know the difference between pass blocking and run blocking apparently. Allowing sacks has little to do with run blocking. If you want proof of this look at the Atlanta Falcons. The best rush team 3 years running but they can't pass block worth crap. They are small and quick which is good for cut blocking and pulling which they do well on run plays but they get overpowered and manhandled in pass blocking. Vick is one of the most sacked QBs.

If you want to rant and try to disprove someone else's points then you need to make better counterpoints than I know the name of the gaurd and tackle so that makes you argument wrong It also helps to have some kind of knowledge of how football is actually played at its basic level and not just depend on what you see on Sportscenter.
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:27 pm

deacon wrote:
TheRawDAWG wrote:
deacon wrote:
maddog60 wrote:
bklik wrote:
deacon wrote:Have any of you actually watched the Dolphins play? I can't lay much blame on Brown yet. In the 3 games that I have watched he appears to be getting the maximum production out of the situation he is put in. The biggest problem with the running game is the coaches. They are not giving the run game a chance to excel.
Brown had 26 carries against Ten but other than that game has had 15, 15, 12, and 17 carries. When the run game is not producing the only way to get it to work is to keep pounding.

It is what Min is doing with Chester. His blocking etc. is no better than Browns but Min commits to the run and keeps running and running and running regardless of the ypc. Eventually the D gets worn out and running becomes easier but you can't tire out a D line with 12 carries a game.


Hutch
Richardson


Exactly. To compare Chester's blocking to Ronnie's is outrageous. Also, when you look at guys who did well behind terrible o-lines (oh like LT) they usually had something like a great blocking FB (say, Neal) going for them. Ronnie's got nothing, and his coach won't even give the run a chance.

First the o-line, 2nd the OC, 3rd Saban, then Ronnie are to blame.


Just because you know the O-line players and the fact that they were past pro bowl blockers doesn't make them a great line right now! Once again people please watch the games and don't just focus on the personnel.

Right now Chester Taylor has a 3.8 ypc average. These are the teams that have a lower ypc average: Jets, Cle, Det, Az, Hou, GB, Balt, Sea.
What is the common denomonator here? Bad O-line blocking!

With this being a fantasy forum I understand that many of you draw conclusions based on stats alone but as we all know stats only tell part of the story. I base my analysis on the fact that I have watched Minnesota and Miami play so the comparison is not ludicrous.

So here is what is happening in Minn:

1 - the line is doing a fantastic job of opening holes but the RB is falling down and not gaining much

2 - the line is not opening holes and the RB is being stuffed at or just beyond the line

What seems more plausible to you?

The Miami O-line is horrible but the Minnesota O-line is not the powerhouse (not yet anyway) that many of you think they are.

Miami is averaging 84 yards rushing per game, with 27 rushes per
Minnesota is averaging 104 yds per game, with 21 rushes per.

Let's see...6 more rushes per game at 3.8 ypc means about 21 more yard per game which is the difference between these two teams average ypg. Hmmm, seems to me like the Minnesota O-line is performing about the same as the Miami O-line.

But I guess I don't know what I am talking about.

But I guess



Wow, this is SO full of holes it's funny.

First off like someone else said you don't take in to consideration the reverse plays that Miami has done. Then you don't even take into consideration the 2 different backs in the situations.

It looks to me like you are the one hung up on stats. It's just you're hung up on team stats. You're argument basically says anyone, including me, could be behind any line in the NFL and put up the same stats as the RB currently there because it's all about the Oline. This just simply isn't true. If a RB is impatient they are going to run into defenders before their blockers get there. Alot of rushing is vision and patience. If the back doesn't have it he's not going to excel.

These guys have a name because they have earned the name. These guys aren't Larry Allen going to Pro bowls because of how good they were. These guys are in the prie of their careers. Hutch is probably the best gaurd in football. Him by himself makes your argument ridiculous. Add in Richardson (possibly the best blocking FB) and Birk And McKinnie and well...you see where this leaves us.... Also, what about the pass protection? Miami's line is allowing sacks at a record pace. Does that not affect the run game?I think it does.


Well I didn't want to go point for point on this because of fear of highjacking the thread but I can't let you piss on my comments like they are garbage.

I didn't take reverse yards into consideration because this was a comparison of Chester Taylors 3.8 yards per carry to Ronnie Brown's 3.9 yards per carry. A receiver running a reverse does not affect those numbers.

As I stated I am not hung up on stats but fantasy people understand stats. When in France, speak french if you want to be understood. In a fantasy forum use stats to demonstrate a point. My argument makes no inference about your or any other backs potential production with a given O-line. How you could extrapolate that information out of what I posted shows me that you have a very robust imagination. If you truly think that a RB in the NFL does not have vision and patience then you are truly only living in a fantasy world. This is the NFL not your local rec league. Even the worst back in the history of the NFL still has good vision and patience.

Hutch is a tackle first of all! A good O-line is better than the sum of its parts. This means that you can't just take the absolute best players at each position and put them together and expect them to be the best. An O-line has to work together as a unit not a group of individuals. They have to instinctually know each others tendancies, movements, characteristics, abilities, etc. This does not happen overnight. Let me give you an example:
Look at the best O-lines in college. They are comprised of juniors and seniors. Not because they are only good as junior and seniors but because they have worked together for 3 or 4 years and have become cohesive. You will never see a dominant college O-line made up of freshman and sophmores no matter how talented they are.
Minn added Hutch this year and it will take some time before he develops cohesion and that O-line becomes a solid unit that performs together.

You named the offensive linemen and then your point is "you see where this leaves us". Yes I see it leaves us knowing that we can call on you when there is a trivia question about who the Minn O linemen are.

Lastly you don't know the difference between pass blocking and run blocking apparently. Allowing sacks has little to do with run blocking. If you want proof of this look at the Atlanta Falcons. The best rush team 3 years running but they can't pass block worth crap. They are small and quick which is good for cut blocking and pulling which they do well on run plays but they get overpowered and manhandled in pass blocking. Vick is one of the most sacked QBs.

If you want to rant and try to disprove someone else's points then you need to make better counterpoints than I know the name of the gaurd and tackle so that makes you argument wrong It also helps to have some kind of knowledge of how football is actually played at its basic level and not just depend on what you see on Sportscenter.


First of all Hutch is a GAURD. http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235219

Second I shouldn't even talk to you about this any more if you don't know the position of the players you are talking about.

But I will, I'm bored at work and love to see people act dumb on message boards. So lets go into this:

College comment first. do you think the college players are all senoirs and Juniors because they have had a TON more coaching and their bodies are way more developed than the kids coming out of high school. I'm thinking that has a little to do with it. I'm not saying your point about gelling isn't valid, but the college comment is boarderline ridiculous. If they didn't play till they were Juniors and senoirs where would they get the cohension from... ;-)

As for not taking into the consideration of the reverse plays...well you were talking about the total rushing numbers of the 2 teams. The reverse plays do have alot to do with that assessment.

Onto my point about the pass blocking. My point was, when a team can send in 4 guys and sack the qb that leaves more LBs free to go after the running game. Mike Vick is a freak and avoids alot of the rush... but the other team has 1-2 LBs just spying Vick so the RBs get a little more freedom in that offence.


Well back to work with me...when you get a clue come back and talk.
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:31 pm

Sorry, missed a point, Yes all NFL RBs have some vision and patience but you can't tell me they are all equal which is basically what your whole argument is. All RBs are equal and only the run blocking counts. This is why you are comparing Brown to Taylor right? Well maybe you should watch some games and maybe you'd see Brown has more vision and the blocking just isn't there. And maybe if you watched a couple more games you would realize what position guys playedtoo.

PS. Mods I apologize if I used strong language but this guy basically called me stupid for thinking Hutch is a gaurd.
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:20 pm

Brown is not the problem. If you recall to last year in Minnesota, Culpepper was bad even before his injury. He is yet to play well without Randy Moss, and although Chambers is a good reciever, he is no Randy Moss- this claim simply is not true. Culpepper is the problem.
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Postby stomperrob » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:56 pm

Why does everyone keep saying "gaurd" instead of "guard"??? :-?
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:20 pm

stomperrob wrote:Why does everyone keep saying "gaurd" instead of "guard"??? :-?


sorry fast typing... well as fast as my two little fingers will get me.
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Postby Bowie » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:25 pm

deacon wrote:It is what Min is doing with Chester. His blocking etc. is no better than Browns but Min commits to the run and keeps running and running and running regardless of the ypc. Eventually the D gets worn out and running becomes easier but you can't tire out a D line with 12 carries a game.


Tayor has one of the best lines in the league to run behind.
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Postby superslugger616 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:26 pm

i traded ronnie nd im happy to have him off my team
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