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Love-tapping the passer

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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:48 pm

Jruiss1 makes a great point...

I played LB in high school, and thank god rules for roughing the passer in HS aren't like the NFL's rules. It's basically impossible (or at least it was for me anyways) to slow down when you're running full speed at the QB and he releases the ball when you are about two steps away from him. The QB is also like any other ballcarrier. It takes a good tackle to bring him down. And nowadays, all the sacks you see in the NFL are "pussified sacks" where there is good coverage and the QB essentially falls down or runs out of room in the pocket and a few guys love tap him and he goes down. They aren't real sacks. You don't see guys come full-speed at the QB anymore. Why? because if they do, they'll know they'll get hit with a "depussifying the QB" penalty....

Yes, you need to protect the QB... but, it should be like unnecessary roughness for other positions. If the ball has been thrown, then obviously you can't hit the QB 5 seconds after the ball has been thrown. But... if the player is "in the motion" of hitting a QB (meaning running at the QB), then he should be allowed to hit him.

A few more gripes about roughing the passer.... A. Why, if there is an interception, does roughing the passer negate the turnover? The roughing the passer had no bearing on the turnover whatsoever....it should be 15 yards from the end of the interception return...
B. The "contact to the helmet" rule is bull. Defenseive players are allowed to go for the ball, ya know? And also, what are defensive players trained to do as the QB goes to throw ball? GET THEIR HANDS UP TO KNOCK THE BALL DOWN!!!! So when there is a defensive player running at the QB who is throwing the ball from a point right next to his head, the QB might accidentally get hit in the head with a hand a few times... and what's the harm really in a HAND hitting the Qb's head?

C. When it comes to leading with the head or driving with the helmet, yeah that should be a penalty. Spearing's not cool.... but the referee should have the leeway to determine whether or not it was an intentional spear...

D. The new "hitting below the knee" penalty...
I don't know what to say here... I understand the point of the rule, but other players get hit below the knee all the time. Running Backs get hit below the knee A LOT when running the ball. I doubt the RB sees those hits coming, because his eyes need to be up the field seeing where the guy in front of him is, not looking down.... and also, when a DL who is pass-rushing and has been knocked on the ground sees the QB, he might not know whether or not he has the ball or has just released the ball. So he hits the QB wherever he can. Is he trying to hurt the guy? NO! He's trying to get a sack....

E. The QB "slide rule". Once a QB slides, he shouldn't get hit. However, I've seen QBs get hit during or in the beginning of their slide, and it's a 15-yard penalty. As a defensive player, you can't KNOW when the QB is going to slide. I've seen QBs (McNair, for one)in the NFL fake slide. The defenders stop, and the QB gets 10 more yards. This is similar to the "late hit out of bounds" rule somebody just talked about.

And now on to the 2 other "roughing" rules I don't like

Roughing the kicker-I understand it, but if the guy is just trying to block the punt/kick, I don't see how he can be blamed if he accidentally nips the kicker on the way by. I don't see too many kickers get hurt either, as long as defenders aren't nailing them.

Defenseless hit on a receiver- This rule is TERRIBLE, and so are the rules regarding "helmet-to-helmet" and "blow to the head". Look, when the receiver is defenseless it is because he is diving, jumping, or making some quick movement in an attempt to reach the ball. However, when the receiver does this, he is making an attempt to catch the ball, so the defender HAS to hit him, to stop him from making the catch and to stop him from running after the catch. Also, when the receiver jumps, dives, etc. expecting a defensive player to somehow avoid hitting his head is ridiculous. His head is moving so fast that the defender cannot figure out exactly where it is going to be, he just hits the receiver. Obviously it's not good if he hits the receiver in the head, but it's also not intentional....

Regardless, I've become quite disgusted with the NFL lately. What I've realized is that the NFL doesn't care at all about its true fans, because it knows that true fans will pay attention to the NFL no matter what. What the NFL IS interested in are casual fans who can add to the fan base and need some reason to watch football....that's why there are all the penalties protecting offensive players and why the NFL likes to create controversy....
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Postby Kensat30 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:44 pm

You guys realize that the QB is the only position on the field that is basiclly standing still on half of the plays? Not even mentioned the blind-side hits. And the fact that they touch the ball on virtually every offensive play.

It's almost like you guys want a police dog trainer to go without a big pad on his arm when he is training his dog. I mean if the suspect can take it on the arm, then the training officer should be able to take one on the arm also. Have dog training officers gone weak?

It's just common sense to protect him. Same thing for QBs.


Perhaps if Joe Theismann didn't get his leg cracked he wouldn't have ended up in the broadcast booth! Think about that...
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Postby Verdun Barbarians » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:57 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Perhaps if Joe Theismann didn't get his leg cracked he wouldn't have ended up in the broadcast booth! Think about that...


Sadly funny :-b :-? :-o
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:01 pm

this argument about "special rules" is kind of silly.

Because the whole game of football is centered around specialized rules.

Lineman aren't allowed to catch a ball unless announced. Heck, there are limits to how far down field they can run.

People dont' realyl lament the special rules for kickers either. I don't feel like enumerating some big list, but the game is centered around special rules for different players and circumstances.

and no, the QB isn not "like every other ball carrier" when in the pocket. That hasn't been the case for a while now.

Like I said, with the old rules, there was way more of an incentive to blast him and play dirty the whole game--the penalty wasn't sufficient enough.

Yes, obviously marketing comes into play too. But still.

Before, taking the penalty was worth it. It was almost as if the penalty was a "fee" you paid to nail the QB. Well, punshment isn't suppossed to work like that.

When it happens in the real world, speeding tickets increase etc.

Granted, its not the real world, but the idea of deterrents holds true here.

And frankly, people making this arguent haven't seen the total amount of times donovan mcnabb has been nailed over the years--even when in the pocket. seems like he can't get a roughing the passer if his life depended on it.
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Postby jruiss01 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:38 pm

I think it all boils down to one thing. QBs are the only ones who don't take massive amounts of steroids and painkillers (Favre and McNair excluded). The NFL knows this, so they compensate by giving leeway to the QB.

I understand that the game needs specialized rules and what not, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I like the fact that the NFL tries to accomodate every position. Sometimes the cons outweigh the pros. There are so many different angles to look at this question. Some QB ask for a beating by scrambling around like a chicken with their head cut off. Others like Bledsoe who is a statue back there, can get nailed once in a while by a blind sided hit. It happens that's the game.

No one ever talks about how dangerous special teams is on punt and kick returns, yet most injuries occur here. Yes they call illegal blocks in the back, but there are times when gunners run down the field full speed and absolutely annihilate blockers. The blockers only have one call that they rely on, and that is block in the back.

I don't believe that harshening the penalties deters players from doing it either. Football is an emotional sport and players will (especially defensive) will always play with emotion. Emotion leads to stupid decisions, which leads to penalties. You can't teach some of these players to calm down. It's the nature of the game. It's like the death penlaty. We issue it as a deterrent, but it clearly is not a deterrent.
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Postby LS2throwed » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:37 pm

i bet you guys would change your mind if they dropped those qb rules, and manning, palmer, brady started dropping like flies and being knocked out for the year, concussions, or serious injuries everyone would change their tune and cry for rules....



do you not understand qb's are 225 lbs and standing completely still when a 300 lb man runs full speed into them, half the time not seeing the hit, how many positions take that kind of punishment? i think no helmet to helmet and not falling at their legs is reasonable to ask defenders not to do it....most sacks are ok, the penalties come when players still hit the qb when its after the fact
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Postby Free Bagel » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:42 pm

Kensat30 wrote:You guys realize that the QB is the only position on the field that is basiclly standing still on half of the plays? Not even mentioned the blind-side hits. And the fact that they touch the ball on virtually every offensive play.


Show me some numbers on QBs being hurt more often, or more seriously than other positions and maybe I'll buy this. As it is though, QB was already one of the positions that was injured least often and least seriously.
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Postby Jimboozie » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:49 pm

Free Bagel wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:You guys realize that the QB is the only position on the field that is basiclly standing still on half of the plays? Not even mentioned the blind-side hits. And the fact that they touch the ball on virtually every offensive play.


Show me some numbers on QBs being hurt more often, or more seriously than other positions and maybe I'll buy this. As it is though, QB was already one of the positions that was injured least often and least seriously.


I might look it up, but I'm pretty sure QB is one of the most injured positions. And they have a short average career span compared to other players. Brett Favre is an exception.
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Postby LS2throwed » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:56 pm

Free Bagel wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:You guys realize that the QB is the only position on the field that is basiclly standing still on half of the plays? Not even mentioned the blind-side hits. And the fact that they touch the ball on virtually every offensive play.


Show me some numbers on QBs being hurt more often, or more seriously than other positions and maybe I'll buy this. As it is though, QB was already one of the positions that was injured least often and least seriously.



thats because rules are in place, if there were no rules like now, qb's would be lucky to play 2 years at most
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Postby HskrPwr13 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:53 pm

Jimboozie wrote:
Free Bagel wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:You guys realize that the QB is the only position on the field that is basiclly standing still on half of the plays? Not even mentioned the blind-side hits. And the fact that they touch the ball on virtually every offensive play.


Show me some numbers on QBs being hurt more often, or more seriously than other positions and maybe I'll buy this. As it is though, QB was already one of the positions that was injured least often and least seriously.


I might look it up, but I'm pretty sure QB is one of the most injured positions. And they have a short average career span compared to other players. Brett Favre is an exception.


Doubtful. When you watch a game, who are the ones generally holding up the game due to injury? Lineman, both offensive and defensive.

I buy the whole marketing thing. What if option football ran rampant in the NFL? Would these same rules be in place? Dont think so. The fact that coaches put QBs in a more vulnerable position is because they want to be able to move down the field quickly and/or hit the big play. If there wasnt specialized rules protecting the QB, ticky tacky interference calls, and this whole "arm going forward" crap, coaches would scheme to protect their QBs better and would probably run the football more often. Probably makes the game less exciting if your of the kind that wants a lot of points and constant big pass plays, but its Amercian football in its more truer form.
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