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Postby V-unit » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:10 am

i saw the entire game and all i can say is Baily shutdown the left side of field.Harrison was about 90% of the time on the left side and Bailey did his job.Did Baily get faked out by a pump fake?NO.Did Bailey let Harrison score?No.I say he did an exceptional job gaurding Harrison with His flaws if thats what you want to call it mattb47.Manning is one the best qb in the game and he picked apart that denver D.I must say though THe denver was holding the colts up until that fumble by Plummer and that changed the game.Every player has flaws in their game bottom line.Its what you do when the oppurtunity presents itself.
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Postby LS2throwed » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:30 am

mattb47 wrote:
LS2throwed wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
The Miner Part 2 wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
disgruntledjetsfan wrote:
mattb47 wrote:The Broncos have only played 2 teams with very good #1 WRs and here is how they fared:

Week 1: Torry Holt (STL) - 7 rec for 80 yds

Week 6: Randy Moss (OAK) - 8 rec for 86 yds

Not great but definitely not comletely shut down and considering that Peyton Manning is a much better QB than either of these two guys have and I have to think that Bailey will have his hands full and be exposed this week.



if you can hold torry holt under 100 yards thats damn good, the guy is unstoppable...as for moss, we all know that when he is on, no corner in the league can cover him. so i wouldn't say that he should be shutting those guys down completely..


This was before the Rams offense even started to play well. So it's hardly fair to say that Denver's defense did a better job stopping them then say another defense they played later on when they started to really turn it on offensively.


is it fair to use only two games as evidence of a guy being overrated? we dont even know what happened during all of those plays.

it's hard to call defenders, especsically cb's, overrated since we dont get to see them play full games. how can we make solid judgements of guys when espn is busy showing us an interview with charles barkley? sometimes you have to trust what coaches, anaylsts, and other players say about defenders. and i've never heard anything but praise for the champ.


I'm not using that as evidence.... :-b

They are used as examples, I have thought this for a good amount of time now after watching Champ play a good amount and this is what I see from him. I've heard people say similar things as well, that he is too aggressive at times and leaves the big play open to go for an interception. Just some of the talk around the cafe about sitting Harrison and Manning because of Champ Bailey just brought this back to mind. Most certainly not basing this purely on this season, certainly not enough data for that, but quite honestly he hasn't really been tested all that much because most of the teams he has faced don't really have one great WR.



come on matt, i know you have been around for some time, so it baffles me as to why you would use a statline to argue why a corner is good or overated, and from 2 games at that, and from some of the best wr's in the entire league....


u do know they dont play man to man, follow the wr around all game right? what about cover 2, when champ is in press and the safety has deep, what about zone where you cover an area and the WR slants under neath? how is that on champ, when you can pull up a stat for yardage on man to man coverage talk to me....


when he was covering moss man to man he picked it off DEEP down field on a deep slant....and once again, if not champ, who is the top corner in the league...its surely not Hall yet, he was thrashed vs pittsburgh


@kensat, so what if manning throws for 2 td's this game? wow, big surprise...he's the best qb in the league now, maybe all time at one point, how many times do you see him shut out of the endzone completely...denver's D is elite not enough to stop the colts cold turkey, but when your leading the league in points per game allowed, with teh fewest td's allowed thats tough, dont care who you play


You obviously didn't read all my posts, because I made it very clear that I wasn't disputing that he was the best in the NFL at CB. I just don't think he's as good as people make him out to be. Did he have a pick or something that disuaded Manning from throwing that way? Or was Manning just being smart and picking on the guy he could beat every single time?

Also, if you read the post I made, they were just examples that I noticed, nowhere did I say that it was evidence that Champ wasn't good or did I say that he was on that WR all game. But WRs like Holt and Moss he is going to be on more often than not. Just showing that those guys can perform against a CB like Bailey, that's all.

I don't think a game where Manning simply threw to another WR makes the case that Champ isn't overrated at all....if a smart QB like Manning wanted to go after him and beat him, he could have, and all I was saying is that he's overly aggressive and it leaves the big play open at times, which is still true after this game.

Unless Champ made some big defensive play that made it so that Peyton couldn't throw his way then you really can't use this game as proof for your cause. Peyton was 32-39 throwing the ball, he had his way with that defense. He simply chose to exploit the weaker of the 2 CBs. In a close game, he chose to go with the safer choice of the two....and no one will dispute that Champ is the riskier guy to throw at, but you have to leave the idea open that he does have weaknesses, and what I'm saying is one of them.



but its just funny, before the game it was "champ gambles alot, and a good qb like manning will expose that"

now that the game is over its "well he just chose the weaker DB to pick on thats all, which one is it lol....


so now champ isnt as good as people make him out to be because the other corner is worse? that makes no sense, manning did not just choose to pick on the other corner, i watched the ENTIRE game, he threw deep to marvin, short, slants, he didnt avoid champ, champ was not beat like you and a few others insisted would happen...he held his ground against a top WR in the NFL and a the best qb you can have, even the hitch and go's with pump fakes you guys said champ would bite on didnt, the few picks manning almost threw were to champs side chasing balls down better then marvin....


so i still dont understand the point of what you were trying to make all along, if he didnt show today he was as good as he's made out to be, what more does he have to do? he shuts down his whole side of the field, that wr, and makes the qb have no lanes to pass thru, thats the definition of shut down, and he's as best as it gets, the 2nd best corner in the NFL isnt even close to him
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Postby mattb47 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:51 am

LS2throwed wrote:but its just funny, before the game it was "champ gambles alot, and a good qb like manning will expose that"

now that the game is over its "well he just chose the weaker DB to pick on thats all, which one is it lol....


so now champ isnt as good as people make him out to be because the other corner is worse? that makes no sense, manning did not just choose to pick on the other corner, i watched the ENTIRE game, he threw deep to marvin, short, slants, he didnt avoid champ, champ was not beat like you and a few others insisted would happen...he held his ground against a top WR in the NFL and a the best qb you can have, even the hitch and go's with pump fakes you guys said champ would bite on didnt, the few picks manning almost threw were to champs side chasing balls down better then marvin....


so i still dont understand the point of what you were trying to make all along, if he didnt show today he was as good as he's made out to be, what more does he have to do? he shuts down his whole side of the field, that wr, and makes the qb have no lanes to pass thru, thats the definition of shut down, and he's as best as it gets, the 2nd best corner in the NFL isnt even close to him


It's still the problem that Champ gambles alot, this is the same logic that makes people pick up someone after one big week. You can't base a person's style of play based on one game, and that's what you're doing here. You're throwing out what I've noticed about Bailey over a long period of time because he didn't get burned one game. It's not like I was saying he consistently gets burned all the time, it happens from time to time and it's because he's too agressive, but that same aggressiveness keeps most QBs from throwing his way much.

You are twisting my words to try to make me sound stupid, but anyone who reads what I am writing and then reads your interpretation can easily see the difference. When did I say that Champ wasn't as good as everyone says because his other corner is weaker than him? Champ obviously didn't cause too much trouble if Peyton only had 7 incomplete passes in the entire game and had a dominant game through the air. I'm not arguing that Champ isn't a good CB, he's the best in the league, not sure how many times you're going to ignore that I said that but I'll say it again so maybe you'll listen this time, he's the best, but this is his big flaw, and it can (yes i said can, not always will) be exploited.

Once again, twisting my words. I didn't say that today proves that he wasn't as good as people make him out to be, I was refuting your claims that it proved he was as good as people make him out to be. I'm sure there are games that I could find (I don't really feel the urge because I know they're out there) that Champ was torn up defensively on. Plays where he went for the pick and got burned deep, it happens, but I don't take those games and say, "See, Champ ALWAYS does this". I said before this game that it is his tendancy to be over aggressive, and it's true, regardless of whether he got burned this week or not, he still has that tendancy. Doesn't make him not the best, but it is his biggest flaw. It is okay to talk about flaws in a great player that can be exploited....
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Postby LS2throwed » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:09 pm

but this is his big flaw, and it can (yes i said can, not always will) be exploited.



ok, but before the game you said a good qb, like manning WILL exploit that, and you posted it before this past game like champ was going to be exploited the whole game, that was the basis of what you were trying to say....


game came and went, and he was not exploited at all, and didnt get beat not once...im not sayin he never will, but how many corners NEVER EVER get beat gambling? honestly, unless he is a machine that makes no errors, ed reed makes errors, so does peppers and the rest of the great ones, so does champ...but you guys made it seem like manning was going to show how champ gambles and gets burnt but it didnt happen....


thats my point, your just trying to change your tone up a little after champ played a great game lol
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Postby LS2throwed » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:12 pm

mattb47 wrote:The Broncos have only played 2 teams with very good #1 WRs and here is how they fared:

Week 1: Torry Holt (STL) - 7 rec for 80 yds

Week 6: Randy Moss (OAK) - 8 rec for 86 yds

Not great but definitely not comletely shut down and considering that Peyton Manning is a much better QB than either of these two guys have and I have to think that Bailey will have his hands full and be exposed this week.



hmmmmm


its ok that you were wrong, people make predictions that dont come true, but you just trying to flip it around since none of what you said would happen did happen
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Postby mattb47 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:42 pm

LS2throwed wrote:
mattb47 wrote:The Broncos have only played 2 teams with very good #1 WRs and here is how they fared:

Week 1: Torry Holt (STL) - 7 rec for 80 yds

Week 6: Randy Moss (OAK) - 8 rec for 86 yds

Not great but definitely not comletely shut down and considering that Peyton Manning is a much better QB than either of these two guys have and I have to think that Bailey will have his hands full and be exposed this week.



hmmmmm


its ok that you were wrong, people make predictions that dont come true, but you just trying to flip it around since none of what you said would happen did happen


If he chose to go after Bailey, he could have beat him. This doesn't change my point, he simply chose to go after the weaker of the 2 CBs. If Wayne could beat Williams every time then why not go after him time after time? The fact that Manning didn't take advantage of Bailey's flaw and beat him doesn't mean that he couldn't have.

You're still arguing based on one game.....I'm talking about years of watching this guy play. And I'm not saying that he just gets beat like any normal corner would, I'm saying that he is far more aggressive than most corners are, hence him getting more interceptions with fewer times being thrown at, and so if QBs were able to make those good fakes and passes they can beat him deep.

I'm not just changing my tone, this is what I was saying. You are making predictions out of things I said would happen if a QB like Manning went after a CB like Bailey. How in the world can I predict whether Peyton will or will not go after Bailey? I can say I think he will go after him, but I can't forsee the CB opposite him playing so poorly that Manning has no need to go after Bailey since Wayne could beat Williams consistently for big gains. My point through this whole thing is that Bailey can be beaten by using his aggressiveness against him, and that if Manning did choose to go after him, he could have beaten him. This thread was not a prediction thread for this weekend! This thread was an evaluation of a player and just trying to see if others, who preferably weren't biased, thought the same after watching him play over a period of time. Stop making it into a prediction of mine, it was a statement about a player's style of play that I believe is true after watching him for quite a while.

You can continue to argue if you'd like, but that's the bottom line and regardless of what he did this past game (which one can argue wasn't much because I think Manning simply chose to go after the weaker of the 2 CBs) it doesn't prove that he wouldn't get beat if a QB really went after him. I think that if Wayne would have been in double coverage and Harrison had Champ one on one for most of the game that Peyton would have went after Champ, but with Wayne on Williams all game and beating him every time, it made no sense to not continue to take advantage of that.
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Postby LS2throwed » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:49 pm

did you watch teh game lol....manning do go after champ, i remember because the plays they did they were ranting and raving about champ and how well he plays the corner position....


and lets just say he didnt, doesnt that say something about champ bailey, that he shut down that side of the field and forced him to throw away from him? you know thats what good corners do....reggie wayne can beat most #2 corners each week, but that doesnt stop peyton from throwing to his favorite target....


you said champ would be exposed by manning this week, you felt strongly about it....manning tried, more then just a few times, and wasnt able to get anything going or find any openings....thus he stopped looking on that side and was forced to go to reggie....


you can argue that wayne was so much better thats why he went that way, but that still says something about champ, good corners stop qb's from looking that way and taking chances, where as you said champ could be beat with a good qb like manning if you took chances, it didnt happen at all....but now you have to flip it so it still looks like you were right all along about what you said
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Postby mattb47 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:03 pm

LS2throwed wrote:did you watch teh game lol....manning do go after champ, i remember because the plays they did they were ranting and raving about champ and how well he plays the corner position....


and lets just say he didnt, doesnt that say something about champ bailey, that he shut down that side of the field and forced him to throw away from him? you know thats what good corners do....reggie wayne can beat most #2 corners each week, but that doesnt stop peyton from throwing to his favorite target....


you said champ would be exposed by manning this week, you felt strongly about it....manning tried, more then just a few times, and wasnt able to get anything going or find any openings....thus he stopped looking on that side and was forced to go to reggie....


you can argue that wayne was so much better thats why he went that way, but that still says something about champ, good corners stop qb's from looking that way and taking chances, where as you said champ could be beat with a good qb like manning if you took chances, it didnt happen at all....but now you have to flip it so it still looks like you were right all along about what you said


I'm not sure that I can emphasize any more that one game doesn't make an argument.....but apparently that doesn't apply to Champ Bailey....so I suppose I'm done arguing here.

Champ played well, I agreed that he was the best, does it mean that he doesn't still have that flaw? No, it doesn't. End of discussion, that was all I was trying to say, once again, I wasn't trying to make a prediction about what Manning was or wasn't going to do. Manning had 7 incomplete passes in the game, in a game that good, there's only so much of an impact any defender could have had negatively on his performance. My entire point wasn't something that could be proven or disproven by this one game, so please stop trying to make it about this one game.

I have no problem admitting that Manning didn't go after Champ like I thought he would. But I also didn't think that the opposing Corner would play poor enough that Manning wouldn't have to as much as he might have had normally. This isn't about whether or not Manning was going to go after him or not, the idea was that had he wanted to, he could have. There's really no more to discuss, as the rest is speculation until there is a time I can illustrate from a game this season my point.
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Postby LS2throwed » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:28 pm

I'm not sure that I can emphasize any more that one game doesn't make an argument.....but apparently that doesn't apply to Champ Bailey....so I suppose I'm done arguing here



do 2 games make an argument? because early on you posted stats from 2 games, from 2 wr's as if that was ok, and nothing was said about it then.....


so why is that any different?
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Postby mattb47 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:35 pm

LS2throwed wrote:
I'm not sure that I can emphasize any more that one game doesn't make an argument.....but apparently that doesn't apply to Champ Bailey....so I suppose I'm done arguing here



do 2 games make an argument? because early on you posted stats from 2 games, from 2 wr's as if that was ok, and nothing was said about it then.....


so why is that any different?


Because.....I made it quite clear that those weren't what I was basing my argument on. They were just 2 games I noticed this year by #1 WRs....that's all, not saying Champ got burned those games because I didn't watch them. I'm speaking from having watched him for a while now, not just one game, or even one season. And actually something was said about it if you read back, and I said it then that I wasn't offering those games as proof, just possible examples. You seriously need to read my posts man before you make accusations....
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