Toys for Tots - Christ Not Welcome For Christmas

[josebach]

Just because someone claims to be Christian doesn’t mean they are. Even if they wear a smock and a little square collar. Honestly, do you really think those priests who molest children are Christian simply because they say they are? That couldn’t be further from the truth.

I completely agree with this. Even though the demographics say that 70% of the country is "Christian", I believe the percentage of true believers may be as little as half of this.

As far as the priest thing is concerned, this came up in conversation while talking to my gay friend, he mentioned something that I never thought of before. He thinks that a lot of priests are actually gay and that they join the priesthood to avoid having to face it. That's why being celebate is not a problem for them. In no way did he mean to imply that all priests are gay or that all gay men like children, but it would certainly explain why there are so many occurences of same sex pedophilia in the clergy.

I do disagree with you in saying a Priest is not a Christian if he molests a child. Most pedophiles think their encounters with children are acts of love.

I will vehemently disagree with you on this, and it goes directly back to my Michigan Fan analogy. Christian is as Christian does. I don't give two hoots in a handbasket if Joe Schmoe has gone through seminary and has been a Priest for 50 years. If Joe Schmoe molests a child, he is NOT a Christian. Period.

He is a person who calls himself a Christian. Huge, huge difference.

It sounds like what you're saying is that if a person truly a Christian, that they're incapable of committing sins of this nature? If that's correct, I'm going to have to disagree. I think we both can agree that someone who is sexually attracted to children has something seriously wrong with their brain. In some cases, the brain abnormality makes them really believe that what they're doing is done out of love and therefore a positive thing. I personally don't believe that being a Christian makes someone immune to this type of mental disorder. I think disorders of this nature are possible for people of any race, ethnic background or religion.

[Dan Lambskin]

Just because someone claims to be Christian doesn’t mean they are. Even if they wear a smock and a little square collar. Honestly, do you really think those priests who molest children are Christian simply because they say they are? That couldn’t be further from the truth.

I completely agree with this. Even though the demographics say that 70% of the country is "Christian", I believe the percentage of true believers may be as little as half of this.

As far as the priest thing is concerned, this came up in conversation while talking to my gay friend, he mentioned something that I never thought of before. He thinks that a lot of priests are actually gay and that they join the priesthood to avoid having to face it. That's why being celebate is not a problem for them. In no way did he mean to imply that all priests are gay or that all gay men like children, but it would certainly explain why there are so many occurences of same sex pedophilia in the clergy.

I do disagree with you in saying a Priest is not a Christian if he molests a child. Most pedophiles think their encounters with children are acts of love.

I will vehemently disagree with you on this, and it goes directly back to my Michigan Fan analogy. Christian is as Christian does. I don't give two hoots in a handbasket if Joe Schmoe has gone through seminary and has been a Priest for 50 years. If Joe Schmoe molests a child, he is NOT a Christian. Period.

He is a person who calls himself a Christian. Huge, huge difference.

Now, what you may be getting at is the fact that certain religious bodies certainly appear to have done things that seem to either condone or cover up these actions (and I’m trying to be nice here; my opinion on these activities is exceedingly dour). I cannot stress enough that you have to divorce the person from the group. If a very large body of people who calls themselves Christian do things that are directly opposed to Christ’s teachings, they are not Christians.

If one man in the whole world is following Christ’s teachings to the letter, and the entire rest of the body of people who call themselves Christians starts worshipping pencils, then that one man is a true Christian and the rest are wrong. It’s not a “majority rule” thing at all.

what if he asks for forgiveness?

I know it's fun to play Devil's Advocate and all, but I'm not going to get into that conversation right now - if you want to start a different thread that's fine, but right here, right now, we're talking about Christmas. It was an analogy, nothing more.

i've gotta get my shots in where i can

as for Christmas, I'm not religious at all, but i dont get offended by it (i ask alot of smart alek questions though), or people wanting to incorporate the religious aspect of it, and yes, i still celebrate it (the gift giving part anyway)

i guess to me though, i see the religious aspect of it is totally lost, or at least going that way. It's totally commercialized and all about buying and giving.

maybe it's differnt in some families, but most kids i know dont wake up at 6 AM yelling "YAY!!!! Jesus was born today!!!", but rather "presents, presents PRESENTS!"

[gablefan]

It sounds like what you're saying is that if a person truly a Christian, that they're incapable of committing sins of this nature? If that's correct, I'm going to have to disagree. I think we both can agree that someone who is sexually attracted to children has something seriously wrong with their brain. In some cases, the brain abnormality makes them really believe that what they're doing is done out of love and therefore a positive thing. I personally don't believe that being a Christian makes someone immune to this type of mental disorder. I think disorders of this nature are possible for people of any race, ethnic background or religion.

But isn't what you said that most priests are gay? If so, than there is no way they could consider themselves Christins...

[josebach]

It sounds like what you're saying is that if a person truly a Christian, that they're incapable of committing sins of this nature? If that's correct, I'm going to have to disagree. I think we both can agree that someone who is sexually attracted to children has something seriously wrong with their brain. In some cases, the brain abnormality makes them really believe that what they're doing is done out of love and therefore a positive thing. I personally don't believe that being a Christian makes someone immune to this type of mental disorder. I think disorders of this nature are possible for people of any race, ethnic background or religion.

But isn't what you said that most priests are gay? If so, than there is no way they could consider themselves Christins...

Uh oh, here we go again. You really didn't just say that a gay person couldn't be a Christian, did you? Wow!

Actually, even if that is what you're saying, I'm not geting sucked in again. People can believe what they want.

And for the record, I most certainly did NOT say that most priests are gay.

[knapplc]

It sounds like what you're saying is that if a person truly a Christian, that they're incapable of committing sins of this nature? If that's correct, I'm going to have to disagree. I think we both can agree that someone who is sexually attracted to children has something seriously wrong with their brain. In some cases, the brain abnormality makes them really believe that what they're doing is done out of love and therefore a positive thing. I personally don't believe that being a Christian makes someone immune to this type of mental disorder. I think disorders of this nature are possible for people of any race, ethnic background or religion.

But isn't what you said that most priests are gay? If so, than there is no way they could consider themselves Christins...

Uh oh, here we go again. You really didn't just say that a gay person couldn't be a Christian, did you? Wow!

Actually, even if that is what you're saying, I'm not geting sucked in again. People can believe what they want.

And for the record, I most certainly did NOT say that most priests are gay.

This is the part of the conversation where I challenge anyone to find the verse in the Bible where Jesus condemns homosexuality.

If that's found I say we continue discussing the topic of Christians and homosexuals. If it's not, I would kindly suggest that we remove this topic from a discussion on what's right and wrong from a Christian perspective.

[Atog]

I pretty much agree with the Marines here--the Marines are not a program with a religious agenda.

How would we react if UNICEF gave out Muhammad dolls to impoverished Americans? We'd be outraged.
(Note: I know that a Muhammad doll would be blasphemous to Muslims, but I'm just making a point here.)

Comparing apples to apples, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged if UNICEF gave children celebrating a Muslim holiday a Muslim toy. That simply doesn't make any sense.

Would we be upset if UNICEF gave out dradles to children celebrating Yom Kippur? Of course not - the assumption would be that those children are Jewish, else why would they celebrate a Jewish holiday?

I'm sorry, but the argument for non-Christians celebrating a Christian holiday is simply absurd.

Toys for Tots isn't an organization purely for the benefit of Christians, even if it's something based around Christmas. Back to our analogy, it's like if UNICEF were giving out Dradles to all kids, not just Jewish kids.

[knapplc]

I pretty much agree with the Marines here--the Marines are not a program with a religious agenda.

How would we react if UNICEF gave out Muhammad dolls to impoverished Americans? We'd be outraged.
(Note: I know that a Muhammad doll would be blasphemous to Muslims, but I'm just making a point here.)

Comparing apples to apples, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged if UNICEF gave children celebrating a Muslim holiday a Muslim toy. That simply doesn't make any sense.

Would we be upset if UNICEF gave out dradles to children celebrating Yom Kippur? Of course not - the assumption would be that those children are Jewish, else why would they celebrate a Jewish holiday?

I'm sorry, but the argument for non-Christians celebrating a Christian holiday is simply absurd.

Toys for Tots isn't an organization purely for the benefit of Christians, even if it's something based around Christmas. Back to our analogy, it's like if UNICEF were giving out Dradles to all kids, not just Jewish kids.

No, it's not, because only Jewish kids celebrate Yom Kippur/Hanukkah (I think Redskins is right – I think it’s Hanukkah where you spin the dradle). If a kid is celebrating CHRISTmas, a CHRISTian holiday, they should be CHRISTian.

Your whole point relies on the fact that CHRISTmas is a secular holiday, which everyone could/should celebrate. It is not. It is a CHRISTian holiday.

Let’s be honest here – I’m not about to go marching through the streets with my banner denouncing non-Christians for celebrating Christmas. ALL I’M TRYING TO SAY is that it is what it is – a holiday celebrating one of the most special events in Christian theology. And to me, it’s very odd that people who are not Christians would choose to celebrate that.

[gablefan]

[This is the part of the conversation where I challenge anyone to find the verse in the Bible where Jesus condemns homosexuality.

If that's found I say we continue discussing the topic of Christians and homosexuals. If it's not, I would kindly suggest that we remove this topic from a discussion on what's right and wrong from a Christian perspective.

We can drop the homosexuality issue if you like, but was Sodom and Gomorrah not desrtoyed because of the lewd sexual nature including homosexuality?

[Redskins Win]

I pretty much agree with the Marines here--the Marines are not a program with a religious agenda.

How would we react if UNICEF gave out Muhammad dolls to impoverished Americans? We'd be outraged.
(Note: I know that a Muhammad doll would be blasphemous to Muslims, but I'm just making a point here.)

Comparing apples to apples, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged if UNICEF gave children celebrating a Muslim holiday a Muslim toy. That simply doesn't make any sense.

Would we be upset if UNICEF gave out dradles to children celebrating Yom Kippur? Of course not - the assumption would be that those children are Jewish, else why would they celebrate a Jewish holiday?

I'm sorry, but the argument for non-Christians celebrating a Christian holiday is simply absurd.

Toys for Tots isn't an organization purely for the benefit of Christians, even if it's something based around Christmas. Back to our analogy, it's like if UNICEF were giving out Dradles to all kids, not just Jewish kids.

No, it's not, because only Jewish kids celebrate Yom Kippur/Hanukkah (I think Redskins is right – I think it’s Hanukkah where you spin the dradle). If a kid is celebrating CHRISTmas, a CHRISTian holiday, they should be CHRISTian.

Your whole point relies on the fact that CHRISTmas is a secular holiday, which everyone could/should celebrate. It is not. It is a CHRISTian holiday.

Let’s be honest here – I’m not about to go marching through the streets with my banner denouncing non-Christians for celebrating Christmas. ALL I’M TRYING TO SAY is that it is what it is – a holiday celebrating one of the most special events in Christian theology. And to me, it’s very odd that people who are not Christians would choose to celebrate that.

I like corn dogs

[josebach]

I pretty much agree with the Marines here--the Marines are not a program with a religious agenda.

How would we react if UNICEF gave out Muhammad dolls to impoverished Americans? We'd be outraged.
(Note: I know that a Muhammad doll would be blasphemous to Muslims, but I'm just making a point here.)

Comparing apples to apples, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged if UNICEF gave children celebrating a Muslim holiday a Muslim toy. That simply doesn't make any sense.

Would we be upset if UNICEF gave out dradles to children celebrating Yom Kippur? Of course not - the assumption would be that those children are Jewish, else why would they celebrate a Jewish holiday?

I'm sorry, but the argument for non-Christians celebrating a Christian holiday is simply absurd.

Toys for Tots isn't an organization purely for the benefit of Christians, even if it's something based around Christmas. Back to our analogy, it's like if UNICEF were giving out Dradles to all kids, not just Jewish kids.

No, it's not, because only Jewish kids celebrate Yom Kippur/Hanukkah (I think Redskins is right – I think it’s Hanukkah where you spin the dradle). If a kid is celebrating CHRISTmas, a CHRISTian holiday, they should be CHRISTian.

Your whole point relies on the fact that CHRISTmas is a secular holiday, which everyone could/should celebrate. It is not. It is a CHRISTian holiday.

Let’s be honest here – I’m not about to go marching through the streets with my banner denouncing non-Christians for celebrating Christmas. ALL I’M TRYING TO SAY is that it is what it is – a holiday celebrating one of the most special events in Christian theology. And to me, it’s very odd that people who are not Christians would choose to celebrate that.

The more I think about it, the more I really agree with Knapplc here. You know non-Christians have been gradually secularizing society. In some cases, I'm adamantly in agreement with it, but this is CHRISTMAS!!!! How can you secularize Christmas? If you have a problem with Jesus being talked about during Christmas, DON'T CELEBRATE!!! If you're not a Christian and you choose to celebrate Christmas, that's fine, but that also means you should respect the true meaning of the holiday. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Christians have given a lot in a lot of different areas and I don't think this is one they should have to give on.