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In a "friendly" argument with the Commish.

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In a "friendly" argument with the Commish.

Postby Tusin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:20 pm

This is my free "friend" league. We all have fun talking smack to each other etc.... The Commish and I are always arguing on his scoring setup. I would still consider myself a Fantasy "rook". But I would consider him the same. This is my second year, and I am in 3 leagues (2 pay, and this one). This is his second year also, but this is the only league he has ever done. ANYWAYS. It is on yahoo, and this is the break down.

Roster Positions: QB, QB, WR, WR, WR, RB, RB, TE, K, DEF, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN
Stat Categories:
Completions (1)
Passing Yards (40 yards per point; 2 points at 250 yards)
Passing Touchdowns (6)
Interceptions (-2)
Rushing Yards (20 yards per point; 2 points at 150 yards)
Rushing Touchdowns (6)
Reception Yards (20 yards per point; 2 points at 150 yards)
Reception Touchdowns (6)
Return Touchdowns (6)
2-Point Conversions (2)
Fumbles Lost (-2)
Offensive Fumble Return TD (6)
Field Goals 0-19 Yards (3)
Field Goals 20-29 Yards (3)
Field Goals 30-39 Yards (3)
Field Goals 40-49 Yards (4)
Field Goals 50+ Yards (5)
Point After Attempt Made (1)
Sack (1)
Interception (2)
Fumble Recovery (2)
Touchdown (6)
Safety (2)
Block Kick (2)
Kickoff and Punt Return Touchdowns (6)
Points Allowed 0 points (15)
Points Allowed 1-6 points (12)
Points Allowed 7-13 points (9)
Points Allowed 14-20 points (6)
Points Allowed 21-27 points (3)
Points Allowed 28-34 points (0)
Points Allowed 35+ points (-3)

Now the problem is, is that the league is EXTREMLY QB heavy. For Example

Last week, J. Plummer 216yds, 1TD, 1INT, still scored 34points.
S. Alexander 201yds scored 12points
L. Johnson 157yds 1 TD 15points

Am I right here, thinking that next year there really needs to be some changes? Or am I just used to my other leagues and this is more of a "norm"?
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Postby Tusin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:32 pm

I think I see the problem. He the QB a point per completion. Which is freaking HIGH.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:33 pm

no, you're right. this scoring is silly.

td's are pretty chance-based. yardage is more predictable. and you basically should just draft qb's your first 3-4 rounds to play keepaway.

some people like funky scoring leagues. i'm not one of them. some twists, fine. but when you have alexander and lj scoring 1/2 to 1/3 of plummer in this last week, it's time to retool the system.
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Postby mattb47 » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:34 pm

You are right, it is far too QB heavy and far too TD heavy. You should never have 1 point per completion, that is far too much. And seeing as how this is fantasy football which is supposed to be trying imitate being an actual owner of a team, I've never been a fan of starting 2 QBs since there is no team in the NFL that starts 2 QBs. Also, your bench space is far too large I think, I think that lesser bench spots makes the league more interesting and difficult.

Here is the setup I like:

QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, K, DEF, 6-7 BN

This is significantly more realistic in the sense that it is closer to what most NFL teams would have on the field regularly. Here is the scoring system I prefer:

25 yds/pt passing
4 pts/passing TD
-2 pts/INT

10 yds/pt rushing and receiving
6 pts/rushing and receiving TD
-2 pts/fumble lost
.5 points per reception
2 pts/2 pt conversion

FG 0-39 yds - 3 pts
FG 40-49 yds - 4 pts
FG 50+ yds - 5 pts

Sack - 1 pt
INT - 2 pts
Fumble rec - 2 pts
Safety - 4 pts
Blocked Kick - 4 pts
Defensive TD - 6 pts
0 pts allowed - 15 pts
1-6 pts allowed - 12 pts
7-13 pts allowed - 10 pts
14-20 pts allowed - 7 pts
21-27 pts allowed - 4 pts
28-34 pts allowed - 1 pt
35+ pts allowed - 0 pts

The 25 yds/pt passing will increase the points for yardage for QBs but taking out points per completion and lowering the TDs to 4pts apiece will get the QB scoring down closer to the other positions.

10 yds/pt rushing and receiving allows to a more realistic representation of production for those positions. Yardage is a MUCH better indicator of good performance than TDs are. Shaun Alexander should get 20.1 pts for 201 yds, not 10.05 pts. Also, the .5 PPR gives a little more benefit to WRs to bring them up closer to the other positions as well. I find 1 PPR to be too much.

The only thing I really saw defensively that I would change is not counting special teams in along with team defense. They really have nothing to do with each other. Many times a "good" special teams fantasy wise can be more because of a poor defense (getting more kickoff opportunities) than anything else. So I think you give the return TDs to the player who returned it (if an offensive player) and not the defense. I am also in favor of giving 4 pts to blocked kicks and safeties because of how rare those plays are, they should be rewarded more than the common INT or fumble recovery.

Just my thoughts.
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:41 pm

well to be honest, if the goal here is to approximate owning a real team, I never understood 4pts per passing td. In real life, qbs really are that much more valuable, and they have a lot more to do with (in most cases) a teams fortunes. obviosuly, the ray lewis', urlachers, tomlinsons of the world change that a bit. But for the most part, the QBs are the studs, and should get 6 pts per td, because the slate is evened in terms of studliness by the fact that fantasy requires two backs at least, and in most leagues, you need one at the flex too--so that makes their value disproportionate.

In this scenario, you would need a pt per carry to offset it I think. A point per reception is a littel silly IMO. A point per reception is one thing, but a point per completion is really out of hand.

I wish first downs passed for, caught and ran for might be a good way of reflecting the value of receptions etc. a bit more, and value the possesion type receiver. Of course, you would have chincy first downs there too.
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Postby mattb47 » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:45 pm

eaglesrule wrote:well to be honest, if the goal here is to approximate owning a real team, I never understood 4pts per passing td. In real life, qbs really are that much more valuable, and they have a lot more to do with (in most cases) a teams fortunes. obviosuly, the ray lewis', urlachers, tomlinsons of the world change that a bit. But for the most part, the QBs are the studs, and should get 6 pts per td, because the slate is evened in terms of studliness by the fact that fantasy requires two backs at least, and in most leagues, you need one at the flex too--so that makes their value disproportionate.


Do NFL players get points for yardage too? This argument is very flawed.....the "reality" comes in more when you are talking about what positions should start, the "fantasy" part comes in when you are deciding how to award points for performance. There would be close to nothing awarded for points fantasy wise if this logic is used.

And in this scoring system it brings QBs closer to other positions, but they still score more points for the most part. At least this allows the top players at other positions (i.e. LT) to be up there with them points wise.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:59 pm

eaglesrule wrote:I wish first downs passed for, caught and ran for might be a good way of reflecting the value of receptions etc. a bit more, and value the possesion type receiver. Of course, you would have chincy first downs there too.


In two of my leagues, we give 0.2 or 0.25 points for first downs. Maybe 0.15 for a passing first down. It's nice. Doesn't get things out of control by any means, but rewards the idea that some carries or receptions have more meaning than others.
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Postby Tusin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:00 pm

Thanks for the info guys. I always thought something was really wrong with the scoring. But everytime I brought it up to him, he would get a little "hurt/mad" lol. I will probably just send him a link to this thread. I think the first thing to do is get rid of point per completion.
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:03 pm

well, NFL players don't get "points" per se, but players obviously get accolades and paychecks based upon yardage totals. Goal Line backs clearly aren't as rewarded as feature backs, game mangers don't get paid like other qbs, etc. My point being that I think fantasy devalues the QB relatively towards the other positions, because in reality, at least on offense, the QB is in real life almost always the most important player. When you throw in the fact that almost no NFL team comes close to using three rbs, I think it has some validity to argue against 4pts per passing TDs.

Running Backs are valued, but not THAT valued in real life. If they were, why weren't SA and Edge totally snapped up? I'm not saying they aren't important, I am just saying that I think the closest you will get is having td's all be worth the same, and have the threshold for big points from yardage be higher for qb's than wrs and rbs. I don't think you need to handicap the QB position by positional allotment AND pts.

I find it more than a tad silly that borderline average real life backs get drafted significantly more early than qb's whose relative stardom dwarfs them. And I think that making the qb's fantasy impact even less by limiting their points sillier.
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Postby programatik » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:18 pm

i read half way down your scoring and before I read anything else thought "damn thats qb heavy...".

However, you still have to look at what QB's produce on average. what i mean is, what does the average qb in your league score. if they ALL score between 30-35 pts a game than it matters less. The thing I don't like about QB's scoring massive points is that if your's happens to ahve a bad game, your screwed.

one of my leagues has completion points, but yards for RB's and WR's are at 1/10 and receptions .5/1. Further 1/50 for passing yards and -.5/1 for incompletions. it balances out better but throws a kink. i've been winning games this year with Kitna :)
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