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Baldinger analysis of M. Vick on NFL.com

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Postby eaglesrule » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:09 pm

This annoys me to no end on how Vick until now, hasn't really faced a storm of criticism. Bear with me, as this is in fact reflected through the lens of an eagles fan who has paid close attention through the reid era.

The similarities of the Falcons and earle 2000 eagles are fascinating. Mobile, "freakish qb" (people forget that donovan was the bomb for his mobility before vick came and blew everone away), awesome tight end, good defense (granted now, that original secondary was better), quality, if not superstar rb (dunn is similar, but better than duce), crap wr's. Granted, the dvision and conference dynamic was different too.

But it seems that vick is regressing or something. Honestly, I expected this team to take the manlte from philly, now dallas has leapfrogged, and probably NO too. When is Vick going to be taken to task for this? His WRs stink, but donovan's historically have too, and he got the job done. and his attitude is bad.

For such a singular and exciting talent, its way too disappointing.

Honestly, that team should forgo the "speedy" wr and try to get people of the colston ilk--fast but not burner, but big and tall with a penchant for ad libbing.

When you have vick, your guys don't need to be burner fast, as your margin of error for them to get open is radically increased with his scrambling ability.

Or why doesn't mora do something crazy? Like figure out some scheme where its a spread offense, screw moving the chains, three/four guys go out on longish patters all the time, drawing defenders with them, nothing there? vick takes it.

Screw the nomenclature at this point. I hate vick, but at the same time, I think him being "bad" is more of a function of lack of imagination on his coaches part.

QBs in the NFL more so than any other type of athlete really are at the mercy of their coach in order to be considered "great"--it seems to me.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:43 pm

deacon wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I've said this before.....but I think I would like to see the Atlanta WRs play with a different QB with a better arm than Vick to see if perhaps some or possibly most of the problems with dropped passes stem from the way Vick throws the ball. It just brings back Matt Hasselbeck a few years ago to mind when all of his WRs would drop plenty of passes each year. A lot of that during that time had to do with the way Hass was throwing the ball. Not sure if this is wrong or right in this case, but it should definitely be taken into consideration as a possibility.


Not even sure what this statement means. What constitutes a 'better arm'? Is it arm strength? If so Vick has the strongest arm in the league. And what exactly does ' the way Vick throws the ball' mean. Because he is left handed the ball rotates in the opposite direction. Is that what is wrong with the 'way he throws the ball'?

Are you saying that when a ball travels 20, 30, or 40 or more yards in the air and comes down and hits someone squarely in both hands that it matters how it was thrown?

Does that mean that if a punt returning drops a punt it was because of the way the ball came off the punters foot?


If you can't agree that there are many QBs with much better throwing arms than Michael Vick then I will have trouble making my point here. That's almost a given when you start a discussion like this.

I'm sure if I knew what could be making his passes difficult to catch his QBs coach would be able to as well and would be able to fix it. I simply said that you need to leave open the possibility of it being the way he throws it as making it a little more difficult to catch. Like I said, look back at Hasselbeck a few years ago, he had Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson, both very talented WRs and yet they dropped passes excessively, then one year all the drops stopped. Does it mean that all the WRs made changes? Or did Hass change something? I think the latter is much more likely.

I'm not necessarily saying that any of Vick's WRs are great, but Jenkins has made some nice grabs this year and I think with a QB who has a better ball to catch (i.e. most of the starting QBs in the NFL), there would be fewer drops.

This has nothing to do with just wanting to blame Vick for everything....but when ALL of your WRs are dropping passes, sometimes thinking that the problem is with everyone else and not Vick is a little less likely in my mind than at least some of the blame falling on him and the way he throws the ball. I'm not an expert in what makes a ball easier or harder to catch, but it's just naive to think that there isn't that difference.
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Postby JasonSeahorn » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:48 pm

as long as vick keeps his high speed rating in madden games, i won't mind what he does.

owning people with vick in madden 05 was fun ;-D
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Postby deacon » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:51 pm

mattb47 wrote:
deacon wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I've said this before.....but I think I would like to see the Atlanta WRs play with a different QB with a better arm than Vick to see if perhaps some or possibly most of the problems with dropped passes stem from the way Vick throws the ball. It just brings back Matt Hasselbeck a few years ago to mind when all of his WRs would drop plenty of passes each year. A lot of that during that time had to do with the way Hass was throwing the ball. Not sure if this is wrong or right in this case, but it should definitely be taken into consideration as a possibility.


Not even sure what this statement means. What constitutes a 'better arm'? Is it arm strength? If so Vick has the strongest arm in the league. And what exactly does ' the way Vick throws the ball' mean. Because he is left handed the ball rotates in the opposite direction. Is that what is wrong with the 'way he throws the ball'?

Are you saying that when a ball travels 20, 30, or 40 or more yards in the air and comes down and hits someone squarely in both hands that it matters how it was thrown?

Does that mean that if a punt returning drops a punt it was because of the way the ball came off the punters foot?


If you can't agree that there are many QBs with much better throwing arms than Michael Vick then I will have trouble making my point here. That's almost a given when you start a discussion like this.

I'm sure if I knew what could be making his passes difficult to catch his QBs coach would be able to as well and would be able to fix it. I simply said that you need to leave open the possibility of it being the way he throws it as making it a little more difficult to catch. Like I said, look back at Hasselbeck a few years ago, he had Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson, both very talented WRs and yet they dropped passes excessively, then one year all the drops stopped. Does it mean that all the WRs made changes? Or did Hass change something? I think the latter is much more likely.

I'm not necessarily saying that any of Vick's WRs are great, but Jenkins has made some nice grabs this year and I think with a QB who has a better ball to catch (i.e. most of the starting QBs in the NFL), there would be fewer drops.

This has nothing to do with just wanting to blame Vick for everything....but when ALL of your WRs are dropping passes, sometimes thinking that the problem is with everyone else and not Vick is a little less likely in my mind than at least some of the blame falling on him and the way he throws the ball. I'm not an expert in what makes a ball easier or harder to catch, but it's just naive to think that there isn't that difference.


I don't know if I can agree that many QB's have a better arm than Vick because I don't know what this means. What constitutes a 'better arm'? How do you quantify 'better arm'. If its a given then you will have to pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by 'better arm'.

I could make the assumption that 'better arm' means stronger arm but if that is the case then you are by far greatly mistaken. Vick has one of the strongest arms in the league.
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Postby mattb47 » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:05 am

deacon wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
deacon wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I've said this before.....but I think I would like to see the Atlanta WRs play with a different QB with a better arm than Vick to see if perhaps some or possibly most of the problems with dropped passes stem from the way Vick throws the ball. It just brings back Matt Hasselbeck a few years ago to mind when all of his WRs would drop plenty of passes each year. A lot of that during that time had to do with the way Hass was throwing the ball. Not sure if this is wrong or right in this case, but it should definitely be taken into consideration as a possibility.


Not even sure what this statement means. What constitutes a 'better arm'? Is it arm strength? If so Vick has the strongest arm in the league. And what exactly does ' the way Vick throws the ball' mean. Because he is left handed the ball rotates in the opposite direction. Is that what is wrong with the 'way he throws the ball'?

Are you saying that when a ball travels 20, 30, or 40 or more yards in the air and comes down and hits someone squarely in both hands that it matters how it was thrown?

Does that mean that if a punt returning drops a punt it was because of the way the ball came off the punters foot?


If you can't agree that there are many QBs with much better throwing arms than Michael Vick then I will have trouble making my point here. That's almost a given when you start a discussion like this.

I'm sure if I knew what could be making his passes difficult to catch his QBs coach would be able to as well and would be able to fix it. I simply said that you need to leave open the possibility of it being the way he throws it as making it a little more difficult to catch. Like I said, look back at Hasselbeck a few years ago, he had Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson, both very talented WRs and yet they dropped passes excessively, then one year all the drops stopped. Does it mean that all the WRs made changes? Or did Hass change something? I think the latter is much more likely.

I'm not necessarily saying that any of Vick's WRs are great, but Jenkins has made some nice grabs this year and I think with a QB who has a better ball to catch (i.e. most of the starting QBs in the NFL), there would be fewer drops.

This has nothing to do with just wanting to blame Vick for everything....but when ALL of your WRs are dropping passes, sometimes thinking that the problem is with everyone else and not Vick is a little less likely in my mind than at least some of the blame falling on him and the way he throws the ball. I'm not an expert in what makes a ball easier or harder to catch, but it's just naive to think that there isn't that difference.


I don't know if I can agree that many QB's have a better arm than Vick because I don't know what this means. What constitutes a 'better arm'? How do you quantify 'better arm'. If its a given then you will have to pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by 'better arm'.

I could make the assumption that 'better arm' means stronger arm but if that is the case then you are by far greatly mistaken. Vick has one of the strongest arms in the league.


Maybe better arm isn't the best word. What I meant by that is a better passer. And I think you can agree that all things considered, Vick is a downright awful passer. Power helps only when you have accuracy as well, Vick has very poor accuracy and is very erratic at times. That is what I mean. I think most people who read my statements would have caught onto that....there was no need to get caught up in such a small idea when I was actually trying to say something else as the overall point of my post.
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Postby Timbathia » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:13 am

Better arm doesnt mean stronger arm. You need to throw the pass as hard as it needs to be thrown to get there are the right time - not harder.

I agree that these guys are NFL WRs, and should not be dropping a lot of the balls that they do, but in my limited experience as WR, there are some guys that throw balls that are MUCH easier to catch than others. It may just be a slight difference in the arc on a particular route, the speed of the pass, the timing of the pass in the route, or the rotation on the ball, or in where they put it, but it can make a huge difference.
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Postby dgan » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:53 am

Everyone is to blame in Atlanta. Vick has his problems, and certainly everyone else does too. This idea that Vick is a bad quarterback because he can't win with a bad team is stupid. There is only two QBs in the league that I would say can win with a bad team - Manning and McNabb.

Any other QB needs a supporting cast, and Vick just doesn't have it. They are injury riddled, can't block anyone, can't catch, can't throw consistently, and don't seem to be put in good situations by the coaching staff. The result, as Baldinger said (I can't believe I actually agree with his take on this...I've always considered him an idiot), is that Vick is going to take off and do what he is comfortable doing and "who can blame him".
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Postby mattb47 » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:05 am

dgan wrote:Everyone is to blame in Atlanta. Vick has his problems, and certainly everyone else does too. This idea that Vick is a bad quarterback because he can't win with a bad team is stupid. There is only two QBs in the league that I would say can win with a bad team - Manning and McNabb.

Any other QB needs a supporting cast, and Vick just doesn't have it. They are injury riddled, can't block anyone, can't catch, can't throw consistently, and don't seem to be put in good situations by the coaching staff. The result, as Baldinger said (I can't believe I actually agree with his take on this...I've always considered him an idiot), is that Vick is going to take off and do what he is comfortable doing and "who can blame him".


There ya go. Everyone is to blame there, including Vick. You can't blame it all on him, but you also can't blame all of his troubles on his WRs.

I wouldn't go as far as you are going here and saying that he has NO supporting cast, he has some talent around him. They may not be using it the best way they could be, but there is talent there. Would the Falcons be this bad if they had a different QB in there? Like maybe someone like Drew Brees or Marc Bulger. Would their receivers "look" this bad? I really don't think so.

Part of the reason he is struggling is I do think they have the wrong type of WRs in Atlanta. They don't need the big play speed WRs, Vick isn't accurate enough throwing downfield. They need good solid possession WRs (pretty much what Crumpler is for them) that can get open when he scrambles and make those tough catches in the middle to keep drives moving. But even Crumpler drops his fair share of passes as well.
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Postby dgan » Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:31 am

Yeah, I didn't mean to say there is no talent there. Just not enough to be a good team.

One argument as well is that when you call so few passing plays and, even when you do Vick scrambles half the time, the receivers probably forget HOW to catch a ball by the time it is thrown to them.

You don't touch a ball for an hour, and all of the sudden one is rocketing toward your facemask. It is no excuse, but certainly could amplify the problem. There just is no rhythm to that offense.

Maybe they should all play catch on the sidelines while the defense is on the field, just so they remember what the pigskin feels like.
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Postby mattb47 » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:11 am

Yea, I agree about that. I think a huge problem is the lack of rhythm. It's why Crumpler is still able to be effective though, because TEs are used to being the outlet a lot when things get chaotic for the QB, so he's used to being that target.
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