Need commish input on application of playoff tiebreaker rule

[The Balanced Man]

I did a piece on this on Fantasy Cafe Radio this week. Instead of re-writing it here, feel free to take a listen.

[BeefSandwiches]

Head to head DOES work with multiple teams ONLY if 1 team sweeps all others or you progress through all the logic and one team is awarded a spot (thus restarting the logic for the remaining teams).

Lets say team A, B, C are all have the same total record, but:

Team A beat team B and C
Team B beat team C


Then it's simple - Team A would advance, then you start the logic over and team B would advance.

Lets say
Team A beat team B
Team B beat team C
Team C beat team A

You must progress to the next tie-break.

Now on the next tie break Team B is #1, Team A is #2 and team C is #3... Team B would advance.

If you have a remaining wildcard spot... Team A, although #2 on this tiebreak, would actually lose. The reason is because you have to progress through the tiebreak logic again AS IF there were only 2 teams. As we know, Team C beat Team A in head to head.

It's really on a situation by situation basis - some situations are not clear cut.

Anybody want to chime in, I think I have this right per NFL.

That is not how I interpret the rule. Below is how it works in our league:

For example, if A, B, C and D are all 6-7:

Team A - beat B twice, lost to C, lost to D = 2-2 (.500)
Team B - lost to A twice, split with C, beat D = 2-3 (.400)
Team C - beat A, split with B, beat D twice = 3-2 (.600)
Team D - beat A, lost to B, lost to C twice = 1-3 (.250)

They would finish in the following order:

1. C
2. A
3. B
4. D

I think I did the math correctly but either way, according to the NFL tie-breaker rules, you take the collective record of each team against the other tied teams.

[Twisted Sister]

Head to head DOES work with multiple teams ONLY if 1 team sweeps all others or you progress through all the logic and one team is awarded a spot (thus restarting the logic for the remaining teams).

Lets say team A, B, C are all have the same total record, but:

Team A beat team B and C
Team B beat team C


Then it's simple - Team A would advance, then you start the logic over and team B would advance.

Lets say
Team A beat team B
Team B beat team C
Team C beat team A

You must progress to the next tie-break.

Now on the next tie break Team B is #1, Team A is #2 and team C is #3... Team B would advance.

If you have a remaining wildcard spot... Team A, although #2 on this tiebreak, would actually lose. The reason is because you have to progress through the tiebreak logic again AS IF there were only 2 teams. As we know, Team C beat Team A in head to head.

It's really on a situation by situation basis - some situations are not clear cut.

Anybody want to chime in, I think I have this right per NFL.

That is not how I interpret the rule. Below is how it works in our league:

For example, if A, B, C and D are all 6-7:

Team A - beat B twice, lost to C, lost to D = 2-2 (.500)
Team B - lost to A twice, split with C, beat D = 2-3 (.400)
Team C - beat A, split with B, beat D twice = 3-2 (.600)
Team D - beat A, lost to B, lost to C twice = 1-3 (.250)

They would finish in the following order:

1. C
2. A
3. B
4. D

I think I did the math correctly but either way, according to the NFL tie-breaker rules, you take the collective record of each team against the other tied teams.

No, this is not the NFL head to head rule. If you include all common games, then this will be the common game rule (it is always lower on the NFL tie-break priority).

Head to head requires a clear sweep OF ALL REMAINING TEAMS. So, in this case, you need to go to the next tie-break to find ONE winner. Then you return to the original tie-break rules (starting with #1) for JUST the remaining teams.

[BeefSandwiches]

Head to head DOES work with multiple teams ONLY if 1 team sweeps all others or you progress through all the logic and one team is awarded a spot (thus restarting the logic for the remaining teams).

Lets say team A, B, C are all have the same total record, but:

Team A beat team B and C
Team B beat team C


Then it's simple - Team A would advance, then you start the logic over and team B would advance.

Lets say
Team A beat team B
Team B beat team C
Team C beat team A

You must progress to the next tie-break.

Now on the next tie break Team B is #1, Team A is #2 and team C is #3... Team B would advance.

If you have a remaining wildcard spot... Team A, although #2 on this tiebreak, would actually lose. The reason is because you have to progress through the tiebreak logic again AS IF there were only 2 teams. As we know, Team C beat Team A in head to head.

It's really on a situation by situation basis - some situations are not clear cut.

Anybody want to chime in, I think I have this right per NFL.

That is not how I interpret the rule. Below is how it works in our league:

For example, if A, B, C and D are all 6-7:

Team A - beat B twice, lost to C, lost to D = 2-2 (.500)
Team B - lost to A twice, split with C, beat D = 2-3 (.400)
Team C - beat A, split with B, beat D twice = 3-2 (.600)
Team D - beat A, lost to B, lost to C twice = 1-3 (.250)

They would finish in the following order:

1. C
2. A
3. B
4. D

I think I did the math correctly but either way, according to the NFL tie-breaker rules, you take the collective record of each team against the other tied teams.

No, this is not the NFL head to head rule. If you include all common games, then this will be the common game rule (it is always lower on the NFL tie-break priority).

Head to head requires a clear sweep OF ALL REMAINING TEAMS. So, in this case, you need to go to the next tie-break to find ONE winner. Then you return to the original tie-break rules (starting with #1) for JUST the remaining teams.

My bad - I was looking at the NFL tie-breaker for teams in the same division, which is what I posted above. Our league is on RTSports.com and the tie-breakers are done using that system. This is from our site FAQ:

Our league is setup to break a tie in the standings first with the team's Head-to-Head records. How does that work if more than 2 teams are tied?
The software calculates the winning percentage of the teams that are tied ONLY in games that they played against each other and uses this as the head-to-head tie breaker for more than 2 teams. A team that has not played the other tied teams (having a record of 0-0) has, by default, a .500 record. So, if 3 teams are tied and their records against each other are, respectively, 2-1, 0-0, and 1-2, the 2-1 (.667) team is first in the standings, the 0-0 (.500) team is second and the 1-2 (.333) team is third.

There are definitely some flaws to that system, but it is what we set out at the start of the season and I don't agree with changing the rules at this point.

[Deathwarmedover]

What you guys are recommending is to CHANGE the playoff tiebreaker rules 1 week before the season ends.

This is not a viable idea. We'd have a mutiny in our league if we did this.

What I really need are opinions on how to administer the rules that already exist.

Other thoughts?

I know I would be one of the mutineers if it was my team that missed the playoffs because of the rules change. I agree with Beef that the best way to resolve the logjam is to go with

2) best winning percentage in games between the tied teams

3) best divisional winning percentage ( I absolutely hate this as a tie-break and would recommend you get rid of it next year or at the very least only tie it to divisional winners)

4) total points


Steve

[PBRmeASAP]

Our league has the same tie-breakers and it is applied in the same way the NFL applies the rule:

Three or More Clubs
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

You take the combined record of the teams in games played amongst each other.

I was checking into our standings and there is a possibility of a three-way tie. After checking with the NFL rulebook I will follow that. Winning percentage of teams vs. all teams in the tie - problem solved!

You will be following the NFL rules so you should be able to defer any complaints as well.

[spodog]

I think the response that BeefSandwhiches posted, with the example given is the most appropriate to use for a fantasy league.

a CLEAR SWEEP of all teams does not appear to be required by the NFL, nor is it likely to provide a useful guidleine to break a 5, 6 or 7 team tie.

Thanks, Beef.

[Twisted Sister]

Ok, great convo...

Here's the question:

What happens if there is not an equal amount of games played amongst all the tied games.

4 team tie

Team A played the other 3 teams 4 times ( 1 team twice)
Team B same as above (4 games, 1 team twice)
Team C same as above

Team D played only 3 games - each team only one time

For teams A, B, C ... do you just count 3 games? If so, do you just count the 1st game they played against the team that they played twice?

Or do you ingore total number of games (let it be uneven) and just calculate the win/loss percentage.

Thanks

[BeefSandwiches]

Or do you ingore total number of games (let it be uneven) and just calculate the win/loss percentage.

Thanks

This is what we use in our league and it works pretty well.

[spodog]

Ok, great convo...

Here's the question:

What happens if there is not an equal amount of games played amongst all the tied games.

4 team tie

Team A played the other 3 teams 4 times ( 1 team twice)
Team B same as above (4 games, 1 team twice)
Team C same as above

Team D played only 3 games - each team only one time

For teams A, B, C ... do you just count 3 games? If so, do you just count the 1st game they played against the team that they played twice?

Or do you ingore total number of games (let it be uneven) and just calculate the win/loss percentage.

Thanks

You'd have to rely on winning %