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Water Flowing On Mars

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Postby steelerfan513 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:05 pm

Sixxgunn wrote:
knapplc wrote:
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knapplc wrote:Errr.... sort of. Water has flowed on Mars in the recent past - as recently as within the last few years. They've found evidence of water flow on the side of an impact crater. Not much water, either - just enough to displace a few tons of soil (which doesn't take much).

This is kind of a misleading story. Discovery is a bit of an alarmist source for news, IMO. They tend to over-report things like this.

Mars is still a desert, aside from the tiny polar ice caps. We have no new information that suggests there are rivers or streams flowing anywhere on Mars with anything resembling regularity. The way the surface looks, I find it extremely doubtful that we will find evidence of flowing water, probably ever.


I actually saw this on the news during lunch and found this link related to it. On the news broadcast they were studying before and after pictures. Very recent pictures. I'll see if I can dig up anything a little more credible later.


I'm not saying there's not a report of water - I read the report and there's no reason to believe it's not true. All I'm saying is that it's such a small amount of water as to be pretty insignificant when considered on a planet-wide scale.

The big deal they're trying to make here is that IF there is flowing water on Mars and IF it's not too terribly frigidly cold there, it's possible there's life on Mars. I'm not denying it's possible for there to be microbial life on Mars. All I'm saying is that THIS discovery of evidence of water is not a large-enough source of water to be remotely significant to the development of life.

That's all I'm trying to point out here. The basics of the story are true - there was, very recently, enough water flowing on the surface to displace several tons of sediment on the wall of an impact crater. That's not disputed (that I know of). The conclusiont that some might jump to based on this is that it's a sign of the possibility of life. I dispute that, at least based on this evidence.


Life is so difficult to understand that we only think of it in terms of our lives, and the living things on our planet. That's yet again just another sign of human arrogance. Or is it ignorance? We can't even figure out what makes our lives possible, yet we easily dismiss the thought of life, albeit of a completely foreign breed, strain, class or whatever you might call it as if we just heard Santa Claus was real. I believe that where there is water, there is the possibility of life as we know it, but that does not change the fact that there may be alien life that thrives in environments that we could never comprehend.


huh? but santa is real.

is this some sick joke?



















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Postby knapplc » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:20 pm

Sixxgunn wrote:
knapplc wrote:The conclusiont that some might jump to based on this is that it's a sign of the possibility of life. I dispute that, at least based on this evidence.


Life is so difficult to understand that we only think of it in terms of our lives, and the living things on our planet. That's yet again just another sign of human arrogance. Or is it ignorance? We can't even figure out what makes our lives possible, yet we easily dismiss the thought of life, albeit of a completely foreign breed, strain, class or whatever you might call it as if we just heard Santa Claus was real. I believe that where there is water, there is the possibility of life as we know it, but that does not change the fact that there may be alien life that thrives in environments that we could never comprehend.

Well, I believe in life on other planets. I believe that wholeheartedly. All I'm saying is that THIS FINDING does not point to the signs of the possibility of life. Yes, there are many, MANY forms life can take, but what some scientists are saying is that because they found signs of water, it dramatically increases the possibility of life on Mars. They're specifically talking about life "as we know it," so I am responding to that statement.

This sign of water is NOT a good indicator of the possibility of life on Mars simply because it's not enough water. The kind of life they're talking about requires many different things to evolve, many of which Mars does not have - at least not based solely on THIS DISCOVERY. I need to be really, really clear on that - THIS discovery is simply a flow of water that could amount to no more than you'd find in a backyard swimming pool, and possibly as much as you'd find in a small lake. In and of itself, that is not enough water to lead to speculation of life on Mars.

Now, we could get into a whole conversation about the possibilities of life on Mars stemming from aeons ago when there was abundant water flowing there, but that is not part of this conversation. There could possibly be microbial life on Mars surviving from those times, but again - that's not what this discovery is talking about.

I hope that makes my statements on this article clear(er).

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Postby dgan » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:55 pm

It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.
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Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:08 pm

dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?
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Postby Munboy » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:38 pm

I drove through Nebraska and I'm sure it was simular to flying through space.

Nebraska - "Hey a corn field!" -hours later (feels like years)- "Hey look, more corn. :*) "

Space - "Hey a starfield!" -years later- "Hey look, more stars. :*) "
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:11 am

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?


I agree as well. And I personally don't believe there is life up there. So many things have to be just right for life to exist even here with our atmosphere, much less on a planet like Mars. Not saying it's impossible, but I do believe it is improbable that there is life on any other planet in this solar system.
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Postby SeaWolf » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:55 am

mattb47 wrote:
A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?


I agree as well. And I personally don't believe there is life up there. So many things have to be just right for life to exist even here with our atmosphere, much less on a planet like Mars. Not saying it's impossible, but I do believe it is improbable that there is life on any other planet in this solar system.


If you mean O2 inhaling and CO2 exhaling then I agree. How do we not know there are other types of life out there that are completely different than us?
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:31 am

SeaWolf wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?


I agree as well. And I personally don't believe there is life up there. So many things have to be just right for life to exist even here with our atmosphere, much less on a planet like Mars. Not saying it's impossible, but I do believe it is improbable that there is life on any other planet in this solar system.


If you mean O2 inhaling and CO2 exhaling then I agree. How do we not know there are other types of life out there that are completely different than us?


Other things as well as that such as our proximity to a heat source (the sun) and things such as that. Once again, I said it's possible, but I think it is unlikely personally that there are even beings out there in this solar system who are THAT much different than us that they can survive in what would be very extreme differences on other planets.
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:53 pm

mattb47 wrote:
SeaWolf wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?


I agree as well. And I personally don't believe there is life up there. So many things have to be just right for life to exist even here with our atmosphere, much less on a planet like Mars. Not saying it's impossible, but I do believe it is improbable that there is life on any other planet in this solar system.


If you mean O2 inhaling and CO2 exhaling then I agree. How do we not know there are other types of life out there that are completely different than us?


Other things as well as that such as our proximity to a heat source (the sun) and things such as that. Once again, I said it's possible, but I think it is unlikely personally that there are even beings out there in this solar system who are THAT much different than us that they can survive in what would be very extreme differences on other planets.


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Postby knapplc » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:18 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
SeaWolf wrote:
mattb47 wrote:
A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
dgan wrote:It is funny how people always seem to find what they are looking for when their jobs depend on finding it. Would NASA continue to get this funding if they were able to conclude without a doubt that there never has been water on Mars? Or, to ask it a different way, if their funding depended on proving there is no water on Mars, do you think they would find a way to prove it?

I'm not saying there is or isn't -- just that it should not be surprising that they always miraculously find something when they are constantly on the verge of losing their funding.


I was thinking along those lines also. However, lets assume for a moment that this is completely truthful, and that there is water flowing on Mars...do you think there is life up there?


I agree as well. And I personally don't believe there is life up there. So many things have to be just right for life to exist even here with our atmosphere, much less on a planet like Mars. Not saying it's impossible, but I do believe it is improbable that there is life on any other planet in this solar system.


If you mean O2 inhaling and CO2 exhaling then I agree. How do we not know there are other types of life out there that are completely different than us?


Other things as well as that such as our proximity to a heat source (the sun) and things such as that. Once again, I said it's possible, but I think it is unlikely personally that there are even beings out there in this solar system who are THAT much different than us that they can survive in what would be very extreme differences on other planets.


Tree Frogs cant survive in Antartica...

But Matt's point is that it's much colder on Mars than Earth. To use the Antarctica comparison, the coldest recorded temperature on Earth was at Vostok Station, Antarctica, -129 degrees F. Average temperatures range between zero degrees F to about -70 degrees F. Mars' coldest temperatures range between -200 to -260 degrees F, and it warms all the way up to -60 degrees F.

So while tree frogs can't survive in Antarctica, they REALLY can't survive on Mars.
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