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I would be very unhappy......

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I would be very unhappy......

Postby tclangham » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:20 am

.....if I was one of the two teams this guy bumped out of the playoffs because of his total points

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=156409

what do you guys think?
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:35 am

I like this idea of having the 2 "wildcard" spots being based upon total points. Total points is the best indicator of who the best teams are, winning and losing carries a lot of luck with it in fantasy football and so it is good to reward the teams that scored the most points along with the teams that have the best records. If you put 4 in by record and 2 in by points, the emphasis is still on record, but the ones with the best point totals can still get in as well.
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Postby Thursday » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:45 am

Horrifically bad idea. Total points has no bearing over who makes the playoffs in the NFL (barring some tiebreakers), nor should it in fantasy. Way, way, WAY too much is made out of total points in fantasy, and i don't understand why. I understand lots of owners complain in leagues in which they score a lot of points and don't make playoffs, but that doesn't mean you give in to them and put them in the playoffs. What if the team that scored the most points was 4-9?? They get in over a team that goes 8-5?? Bad form. Imagine the complaining then...

In short, i hate the idea.
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Postby deluxe_247 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:46 am

mattb47 wrote:I like this idea of having the 2 "wildcard" spots being based upon total points. Total points is the best indicator of who the best teams are, winning and losing carries a lot of luck with it in fantasy football and so it is good to reward the teams that scored the most points along with the teams that have the best records. If you put 4 in by record and 2 in by points, the emphasis is still on record, but the ones with the best point totals can still get in as well.


i agree with this 100%. win-loss record is more based on luck than total points is...i like this system.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:54 am

Thursday wrote:Horrifically bad idea. Total points has no bearing over who makes the playoffs in the NFL (barring some tiebreakers), nor should it in fantasy. Way, way, WAY too much is made out of total points in fantasy, and i don't understand why. I understand lots of owners complain in leagues in which they score a lot of points and don't make playoffs, but that doesn't mean you give in to them and put them in the playoffs. What if the team that scored the most points was 4-9?? They get in over a team that goes 8-5?? Bad form. Imagine the complaining then...

In short, i hate the idea.


Is winning and losing almost pure luck in the NFL too? Didn't think so....that's where this argument falls apart. You cannot compare two things like that so radically different and use it as the basis for your argument.

There is very little skill and or strategy beyond putting the players in your lineup that will get you the most points possible. In the NFL there is someone actually defending your team, trying to prevent them from doing well, in fantasy it is just which team can score the most. Should a team be penalized if they lose nearly every single week because they score the 2nd highest points and play the team with the highest? I don't think so personally. Your goal is to score as many points as possible, wins happen or they dont. Not at all the same as the NFL.
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Postby Thursday » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:02 am

Is winning and losing almost pure luck in the NFL too? Didn't think so....that's where this argument falls apart.


Didn't mention luck... :-?

Should a team be penalized if they lose nearly every single week because they score the 2nd highest points and play the team with the highest?


I'm actually not being sarcastic when i say, yeah, they should. I realize i'm probably going to draw quite a bit of venom in saying that, but, i stand by my argument. I truly do believe it's all about the schedule. 2 weeks ago, i lost to the top scoring team in the league by 1 point, and i was the 2nd highest scoring team. Sure, i could have made a big deal out of it, but that's the breaks. NFL teams get tough schedules, just like fantasy.

I guess it's just my opinion, which probably is in the minority. I just have never understood fantasy owners who complain about total points scored, that's all.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:15 am

Thursday wrote:
Is winning and losing almost pure luck in the NFL too? Didn't think so....that's where this argument falls apart.


Didn't mention luck... :-?

Should a team be penalized if they lose nearly every single week because they score the 2nd highest points and play the team with the highest?


I'm actually not being sarcastic when i say, yeah, they should. I realize i'm probably going to draw quite a bit of venom in saying that, but, i stand by my argument. I truly do believe it's all about the schedule. 2 weeks ago, i lost to the top scoring team in the league by 1 point, and i was the 2nd highest scoring team. Sure, i could have made a big deal out of it, but that's the breaks. NFL teams get tough schedules, just like fantasy.

I guess it's just my opinion, which probably is in the minority. I just have never understood fantasy owners who complain about total points scored, that's all.


My point exactly that you didn't mention luck. In the NFL, wins and losses are not based upon luck, in fantasy football they are. In the NFL, the best teams are seperated by wins and losses because good teams win games, in fantasy football, the better teams will score more points over the course of a season. They just cannot be compared because the performance is judged on two completely different things.

How is rewarding luck "fair" to the teams that score the most points? At least when you give them 2 "wildcard" spots for points, you are rewarding the skill aspect along with the luck....you are still rewarding the teams that "win" games, but you are also rewarding the teams that put forth the most points, which is a better indicator of the best teams. I don't see how you can make an argument that wins and losses are a good indicator of the best teams.
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Postby Thursday » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:28 am

mattb47 wrote:My point exactly that you didn't mention luck. In the NFL, wins and losses are not based upon luck, in fantasy football they are. In the NFL, the best teams are seperated by wins and losses because good teams win games, in fantasy football, the better teams will score more points over the course of a season. They just cannot be compared because the performance is judged on two completely different things.

How is rewarding luck "fair" to the teams that score the most points? At least when you give them 2 "wildcard" spots for points, you are rewarding the skill aspect along with the luck....you are still rewarding the teams that "win" games, but you are also rewarding the teams that put forth the most points, which is a better indicator of the best teams. I don't see how you can make an argument that wins and losses are a good indicator of the best teams.


Well, saying that fantasy wins and losses is based on luck is also opinion. In my league, the teams with the most points are generally at the top, and those with the least are generally at the bottom. The win-loss system is there for a reason, i think. I'm in 2 leagues this season, first place in both. In one league, i'm the top scorer, in the other, i'm the 2nd highest scoring team, but have a 10-3 record, whereas the top scorer is 9-4. That's not luck, that's the system that's in place working just fine.

What i'm trying to get at is why have the win-loss system?? Just have total points if you want to reward those who are the best. Again, why punish a 8-5 team for winning a lot during the season to put in a guy who is 4-9 but scored more points?? It's a combination of scoring systems. Do record or points, but not both. You'll always have those who whine about having the most points, but missing the playoffs, but I can only imagine what would happen if an owner who won all season long getting the boot for a higher-scoring team. Just doesn't make sense to me.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:34 am

Thursday wrote:
mattb47 wrote:My point exactly that you didn't mention luck. In the NFL, wins and losses are not based upon luck, in fantasy football they are. In the NFL, the best teams are seperated by wins and losses because good teams win games, in fantasy football, the better teams will score more points over the course of a season. They just cannot be compared because the performance is judged on two completely different things.

How is rewarding luck "fair" to the teams that score the most points? At least when you give them 2 "wildcard" spots for points, you are rewarding the skill aspect along with the luck....you are still rewarding the teams that "win" games, but you are also rewarding the teams that put forth the most points, which is a better indicator of the best teams. I don't see how you can make an argument that wins and losses are a good indicator of the best teams.


Well, saying that fantasy wins and losses is based on luck is also opinion. In my league, the teams with the most points are generally at the top, and those with the least are generally at the bottom. The win-loss system is there for a reason, i think. I'm in 2 leagues this season, first place in both. In one league, i'm the top scorer, in the other, i'm the 2nd highest scoring team, but have a 10-3 record, whereas the top scorer is 9-4. That's not luck, that's the system that's in place working just fine.

What i'm trying to get at is why have the win-loss system?? Just have total points if you want to reward those who are the best. Again, why punish a 8-5 team for winning a lot during the season to put in a guy who is 4-9 but scored more points?? It's a combination of scoring systems. Do record or points, but not both. You'll always have those who whine about having the most points, but missing the playoffs, but I can only imagine what would happen if an owner who won all season long getting the boot for a higher-scoring team. Just doesn't make sense to me.


Yes generally the highest scoring teams are on the top, but not always which brings us to this dilemma. Maybe a stipulation should be put on this such as this:

Let's say 6 teams make the playoffs.

The first 4 teams are put in purely on record.

If there is any team that is in the top 4 in points that didn't make it in based on record, they get a wildcard into the playoffs. If not then you once again just take the top records. Would this satisfy your concerns Thursday?

Also, there's really no way to argue that wins and losses are NOT luck, I've been in a league where I had the most points of any team but didn't make the playoffs because the opponents I faced averaged an insane amount of points, my team was the "best" i think, just unlucky.
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Postby Thursday » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:46 am

mattb47 wrote:Yes generally the highest scoring teams are on the top, but not always which brings us to this dilemma. Maybe a stipulation should be put on this such as this:

Let's say 6 teams make the playoffs.

The first 4 teams are put in purely on record.

If there is any team that is in the top 4 in points that didn't make it in based on record, they get a wildcard into the playoffs. If not then you once again just take the top records. Would this satisfy your concerns Thursday?

Also, there's really no way to argue that wins and losses are NOT luck, I've been in a league where I had the most points of any team but didn't make the playoffs because the opponents I faced averaged an insane amount of points, my team was the "best" i think, just unlucky.


Ah! See, i think i may be restricting my thinking to my Yahoo! leagues, in which 4 teams play for the title in the playoffs. If it were a 6 team playoff format, i would see it playing kinda like this:

1st seed & second seed get byes.

3rd seed plays #2 scorer.
4th seed plays top scorer.

Is this more what you're talking about? But I still see a flaw. What if the top scorer already made the playoffs? And the second top scorer? Then the third? So then the FOURTH highest scorer makes the playoffs? Still, the system is imperfect, but so is the win-loss system. Why replace an imperfect system with another?
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