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I would be very unhappy......

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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:25 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:If you want a H2H league, you need to keep the format consistent.

If you believe that total points is the best measure of a team's strength... play in Total Point Leagues.

Alright. Then you play in a H2H league that doesn't use points. B-)
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Postby Twisted Sister » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:54 pm

Matt and Others -

To stay on topic... this is a H2H league that added Total Points as the defining criteria for wildcard spots.

This is not a debate of which is more fair... H2H or Total Points.

If I join a H2H league... yeah I'll be PO'd if H2H rankings goes out the window just because I'm contending for a wildcard spot.

What if I straight up beat the team with higher points... I would be really upset.

Again, a lot of people complain about how they have such high total points but didn't make the playoffs... yada yada yada.

In virtually every case where there is a huge point gap (say they are ranked #1-3 in points, but miss in a 6 team playoff system)... it's because they have such inconsisent performance. They had a few mega-boom games that inflated their total averages.

This streaky team deserves to advance over another team that has a better record??? It's really worth changing the philosophy/rules of the whole league to let this team in? I think not.

Does a team with .000001% higher points, but worse record, deserve to be in the playoffs?

Again, I'm talking H2H format strictly.


One last thing... we're a little on the FF freak side here on the cafe. However, most leagues have a few casual players. Adding confusing/incosistent rules has major drawbacks.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:12 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:Matt and Others -

To stay on topic... this is a H2H league that added Total Points as the defining criteria for wildcard spots.

This is not a debate of which is more fair... H2H or Total Points.

If I join a H2H league... yeah I'll be PO'd if H2H rankings goes out the window just because I'm contending for a wildcard spot.

What if I straight up beat the team with higher points... I would be really upset.

Again, a lot of people complain about how they have such high total points but didn't make the playoffs... yada yada yada.

In virtually every case where there is a huge point gap (say they are ranked #1-3 in points, but miss in a 6 team playoff system)... it's because they have such inconsisent performance. They had a few mega-boom games that inflated their total averages.

This streaky team deserves to advance over another team that has a better record??? It's really worth changing the philosophy/rules of the whole league to let this team in? I think not.

Does a team with .000001% higher points, but worse record, deserve to be in the playoffs?

Again, I'm talking H2H format strictly.


One last thing... we're a little on the FF freak side here on the cafe. However, most leagues have a few casual players. Adding confusing/incosistent rules has major drawbacks.


Actually, a debate on which is a more fair method of deciding playoff teams is actually pretty much what is being discussed here. The question is that if a team is doing very well points wise, which is the best indicator of which team is performing the best, should they get in even if they get unlucky schedule wise?

Once again, the generalization you are making by saying that the teams with high points but bad records are inconsistent is just plain wrong. This is actually NOT true in virtually every case of competitive leagues I've been in where this has taken place.

This is not a thread where it is best to limit it to the discussion of a specific topic, it is a good place right now to discuss if this is a good method to use, and if it is should it be tweaked a bit, or should it be purely on points for those last two spots?

I think that those spots should only be given to teams based on points if they finished in the top few in the league in total points, otherwise give it to the team with the best records.

You completely dodged everything I brought up by trying to "stay on topic". There is no real argument that can be made against wins and losses being nearly 100% luck (assuming that the teams in question are active) because scheduling is what determines the wins and losses. The only thing the owner can control is the points for their team, and the team that is able to do this the best should get rewarded for it.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:19 pm

TwistedSister:

A) The specific case on point doesn't really matter. It's not like that sportswriter or anyone in his league is reading this. It was just a link.

B) The total points wild card was added at the beginning of the season. So it was a H2H/top points mixed league throughout the season. Not sure what basis you would have to get pissed.

C) It's all just an artificial construct. There's nothing more or less artificial of a construct making a league a mixture of H2H spots and points rather than 100% one or the other. It's not like you have an incentive to play any differently.

D) If high scoring teams with bad records are inconsistent, then what are teams with good records and low points?
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Postby deluxe_247 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:24 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:
In virtually every case where there is a huge point gap (say they are ranked #1-3 in points, but miss in a 6 team playoff system)... it's because they have such inconsisent performance. They had a few mega-boom games that inflated their total averages.

This streaky team deserves to advance over another team that has a better record??? It's really worth changing the philosophy/rules of the whole league to let this team in? I think not.


not true.

ive had experience in my leagues (not always my team) that a certain team scores second or third highest in the league for the week, and just happens to always be playing the team that gets the overall highest score in the league. a team can be consistently high scoring and just play the wrong team every week and still end up with a bad record. though its possible to achieve high seasonal point totals through boom or bust teams, its not always the case.
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Postby danleroi22 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:34 pm

deluxe_247 wrote:
Twisted Sister wrote:
In virtually every case where there is a huge point gap (say they are ranked #1-3 in points, but miss in a 6 team playoff system)... it's because they have such inconsisent performance. They had a few mega-boom games that inflated their total averages.

This streaky team deserves to advance over another team that has a better record??? It's really worth changing the philosophy/rules of the whole league to let this team in? I think not.


not true.

ive had experience in my leagues (not always my team) that a certain team scores second or third highest in the league for the week, and just happens to always be playing the team that gets the overall highest score in the league. a team can be consistently high scoring and just play the wrong team every week and still end up with a bad record. though its possible to achieve high seasonal point totals through boom or bust teams, its not always the case.


This is the case with my 4-9 team (see second page for post) :-/
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Postby Twisted Sister » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:05 pm

This is the case with my 4-9 team (see second page for post) :-/


Can you post your weekly's and the lowest seeded playoff bound weekly's?

You only listed total points.

Does it ever happen that Total Points leader is a legit team that just had a disgusting amount of points against every week... sure, given enough FF leagues, it would happen. However, I'm pretty sure it is a rare.

Maybe I should post a poll here on the cafe to get some data. I'm pretty confident it will be a rare occurrence.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:17 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:
This is the case with my 4-9 team (see second page for post) :-/


Can you post your weekly's and the lowest seeded playoff bound weekly's?

You only listed total points.

Does it ever happen that Total Points leader is a legit team that just had a disgusting amount of points against every week... sure, given enough FF leagues, it would happen. However, I'm pretty sure it is a rare.

Maybe I should post a poll here on the cafe to get some data. I'm pretty confident it will be a rare occurrence.


You still have failed to respond to anything we brought up. You are concentrating on specific things but you are not answering some of the things we have noted as being in our favor in this discussion. What is the purpose of putting a lineup in each week? Are you or are you not attempting to get the most points possible? If you get the most points possible (say 2nd best in the league) but you play the team with the most points that week, does it mean your team is on the same level of another team that scored half as many points as you did? So what then is the best indicator of how "good" a team is?
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Postby Twisted Sister » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:19 pm

If you guys want to start a thread about best FF format... that's cool.

This thread was about titled "I'd be very unhappy..." and goes on to list an article, where in an established H2H league, the commish change the rules this year. The writer was happy because he got in, but others may not be.

Do the owners have to live with the results? Sure. They knew of the change and decided to stay in the league. If this was my established league, and it was just the commish that changed the rules (as stated in the article), yes I would be PO'd. I prefer H2H... it makes it more exciting amongst owners (love that trash talk each week).

Why do you guys propose doing any H2H if it's so unfair??? Why not be ALL Total Points?

So you think H2H is too luck driven, but you'll keep it for the top 3-4 seeds (assuming 6 seeds)?? :-? :-?

If anything, you should be arguing that H2H should only be considered for wildcard.... since it's so luck driven. That would leave the top seeds for Total Points winners.

Do you see the logic flaw here?
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:34 pm

How about this for an example as my team in one league:

Week 1: 113.74 - 115.49
Week 2: 103.26 - 134.19
Week 3: 116.63 - 105.24
Week 4: 107.48 - 117.23
Week 5: 94.37 - 115.59
Week 6: 107.97 - 108.30
Week 7: 116.06 - 87.98
Week 8: 141.62 - 98.45
Week 9: 106.07 - 137.94
Week 10: 105.37 - 111.87
Week 11: 100.86 - 87.17
Week 12: 95.03 - 122.38
Week 13: 102.33 - 118.40

The bolded weeks are my wins. I scored the most points in my league at 1458.31 pts (112..18 ppg)

My opponents score? 1460.23 total points (112.33 ppg)

The average total score for my league? 1310.79 pts (100.83 ppg average)

My team finished 10th in my league at 4-9 on the year.
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