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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:37 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:If you guys want to start a thread about best FF format... that's cool.

This thread was about titled "I'd be very unhappy..." and goes on to list an article, where in an established H2H league, the commish change the rules this year. The writer was happy because he got in, but others may not be.

Do the owners have to live with the results? Sure. They knew of the change and decided to stay in the league. If this was my established league, and it was just the commish that changed the rules (as stated in the article), yes I would be PO'd. I prefer H2H... it makes it more exciting amongst owners (love that trash talk each week).

Why do you guys propose doing any H2H if it's so unfair??? Why not be ALL Total Points?

So you think H2H is too luck driven, but you'll keep it for the top 3-4 seeds (assuming 6 seeds)?? :-? :-?

If anything, you should be arguing that H2H should only be considered for wildcard.... since it's so luck driven. That would leave the top seeds for Total Points winners.

Do you see the logic flaw here?


Wins and losses are indeed a part of the game. They are a part that not many people would want to get rid of. It adds an extra sense of competitiveness on a weekly basis to have head to head wins and losses but it doesn't mean that it's the best indicator of which team is the best team. You still give the top 4 spots by record because the competitiveness of H2H week in and week out has to account for something, but the points of a team SHOULD account for something as well.
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Postby Twisted Sister » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:44 pm

mattb47 wrote:How about this for an example as my team in one league:

Week 1: 113.74 - 115.49
Week 2: 103.26 - 134.19
Week 3: 116.63 - 105.24
Week 4: 107.48 - 117.23
Week 5: 94.37 - 115.59
Week 6: 107.97 - 108.30
Week 7: 116.06 - 87.98
Week 8: 141.62 - 98.45
Week 9: 106.07 - 137.94
Week 10: 105.37 - 111.87
Week 11: 100.86 - 87.17
Week 12: 95.03 - 122.38
Week 13: 102.33 - 118.40

The bolded weeks are my wins. I scored the most points in my league at 1458.31 pts (112..18 ppg)

My opponents score? 1460.23 total points (112.33 ppg)

The average total score for my league? 1310.79 pts (100.83 ppg average)

My team finished 10th in my league at 4-9 on the year.


Thanks for the example. Maybe I'm not counting all your games or something, but I'm actually seeing that 108 is your average points per game (total points = 1410.79)... not 112.

Not a big deal either way.

Maybe you can list the lowest and highest seeded winners for comparison?

Thanks.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:54 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:
mattb47 wrote:How about this for an example as my team in one league:

Week 1: 113.74 - 115.49
Week 2: 103.26 - 134.19
Week 3: 116.63 - 105.24
Week 4: 107.48 - 117.23
Week 5: 94.37 - 115.59
Week 6: 107.97 - 108.30
Week 7: 116.06 - 87.98
Week 8: 151.67 - 98.45
Week 9: 106.07 - 137.94
Week 10: 105.37 - 111.87
Week 11: 100.86 - 87.17
Week 12: 95.03 - 122.38
Week 13: 109.38 - 118.40

The bolded weeks are my wins. I scored the most points in my league at 1458.31 pts (112..18 ppg)

My opponents score? 1460.23 total points (112.33 ppg)

The average total score for my league? 1310.79 pts (100.83 ppg average)

My team finished 10th in my league at 4-9 on the year.


Thanks for the example. Maybe I'm not counting all your games or something, but I'm actually seeing that 108 is your average points per game (total points = 1410.79)... not 112.

Not a big deal either way.

Maybe you can list the lowest and highest seeded winners for comparison?

Thanks.


Sorry, I put in red the mistakes I made in typing things in for the scoring, and then my total is actually 1428.31 not 1458.31. So I averaged 109.87 ppg.

Did you just want the points for the lowest and highest seeded teams to make the playoffs?

Here they are:

#1 Seed: 1394.81 (107.29 ppg)
#6 Seed: 1292.12 (99.39 ppg)
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Postby Twisted Sister » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:56 pm

mattb47 wrote:
Twisted Sister wrote:
mattb47 wrote:How about this for an example as my team in one league:

Week 1: 113.74 - 115.49
Week 2: 103.26 - 134.19
Week 3: 116.63 - 105.24
Week 4: 107.48 - 117.23
Week 5: 94.37 - 115.59
Week 6: 107.97 - 108.30
Week 7: 116.06 - 87.98
Week 8: 151.67 - 98.45
Week 9: 106.07 - 137.94
Week 10: 105.37 - 111.87
Week 11: 100.86 - 87.17
Week 12: 95.03 - 122.38
Week 13: 109.38 - 118.40

The bolded weeks are my wins. I scored the most points in my league at 1458.31 pts (112..18 ppg)

My opponents score? 1460.23 total points (112.33 ppg)

The average total score for my league? 1310.79 pts (100.83 ppg average)

My team finished 10th in my league at 4-9 on the year.


Thanks for the example. Maybe I'm not counting all your games or something, but I'm actually seeing that 108 is your average points per game (total points = 1410.79)... not 112.

Not a big deal either way.

Maybe you can list the lowest and highest seeded winners for comparison?

Thanks.


Sorry, I put in red the mistakes I made in typing things in for the scoring, and then my total is actually 1428.31 not 1458.31. So I averaged 109.87 ppg.

Did you just want the points for the lowest and highest seeded teams to make the playoffs?

Here they are:

#1 Seed: 1394.81 (107.29 ppg)
#6 Seed: 1292.12 (99.39 ppg)


Can you give the per game data... I love data.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:00 pm

I don't think is conceptually different than leagues giving the largest share of the pot to the Super Bowl winner but having a smaller monetary prize for top points scorer. In the league I set up, SB winner will get about $170; 2nd place gets about $85; and top point scorer gets $50. The top point scorer looks like he has a good chance to also get first or second this year, but it could have ended up that he didn't. And I don't think that it's wrong or inconsistent to reward both.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:25 pm

Twisted Sister wrote:Can you give the per game data... I love data.


So much time....

Alright....here goes....

#1 Seed:

Week 1: 75.03 - 108.62
Week 2: 109.11 - 90.47
Week 3: 102.22 - 95.62
Week 4: 117.23 - 107.48
Week 5: 112.85 - 78.99
Week 6: 124.04 - 116.87
Week 7: 129.58 - 112.93

Week 8: 88.69 - 130.63
Week 9: 98.96 - 86.47
Week 10: 110.90 - 120.46
Week 11: 83.99 - 93.66
Week 12: 117.75 - 110.70
Week 13: 124.46 - 84.04


He finished the year at 9-4. Combined opponents score of 1383.14 (106.40 ppg). Week 4 is the week I played him.

#6 Seed:

Week 1: 71.48 - 58.73
Week 2: 110.01 - 81.95
Week 3: 96.60 - 85.29
Week 4: 108.99 - 81.72

Week 5: 83.95 - 100.64
Week 6: 116.87 - 124.04
Week 7: 102.41 - 90.93
Week 8: 101.98 - 58.11
Week 9: 111.98 - 92.64
Week 10: 111.87 - 95.37

Week 11: 101.27 - 116.76
Week 12: 90.73 - 100.29
Week 13: 84.04 - 124.46

He finished at 8-5 on the year. Combined Opponents score of 1321.57 (101.66 ppg). I played him in week 10.
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Postby tclangham » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:01 pm

Matthias wrote:I don't think is conceptually different than leagues giving the largest share of the pot to the Super Bowl winner but having a smaller monetary prize for top points scorer. In the league I set up, SB winner will get about $170; 2nd place gets about $85; and top point scorer gets $50. The top point scorer looks like he has a good chance to also get first or second this year, but it could have ended up that he didn't. And I don't think that it's wrong or inconsistent to reward both.


This is the only way I see rewarding someone for most points in a league as being fair. I guess there really isnt a barometer of how well the highest scoring teams with a losing record do in he playoffs? Do these teams win in the playoffs or is this so called "Bad Luck" follow them into the playoffs? If its a points league then ya you get into the playoffs with points, if its a money league then ya you get $ for finishing with the most points. But if it is a head to head league, money league where your win/loss record gets you into the playoffs and the highest scoring person gets to jump over the people who deserve a playoff spot, that is just wrong.
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Postby mattb47 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:09 pm

tclangham wrote:
Matthias wrote:I don't think is conceptually different than leagues giving the largest share of the pot to the Super Bowl winner but having a smaller monetary prize for top points scorer. In the league I set up, SB winner will get about $170; 2nd place gets about $85; and top point scorer gets $50. The top point scorer looks like he has a good chance to also get first or second this year, but it could have ended up that he didn't. And I don't think that it's wrong or inconsistent to reward both.


This is the only way I see rewarding someone for most points in a league as being fair. I guess there really isnt a barometer of how well the highest scoring teams with a losing record do in he playoffs? Do these teams win in the playoffs or is this so called "Bad Luck" follow them into the playoffs? If its a points league then ya you get into the playoffs with points, if its a money league then ya you get $ for finishing with the most points. But if it is a head to head league, money league where your win/loss record gets you into the playoffs and the highest scoring person gets to jump over the people who deserve a playoff spot, that is just wrong.


How exactly is winning based mostly upon luck make someone "deserving"?
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Postby eaglesrule » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:04 pm

well if people really wanted to make fantasy football more fair, the roto format would be adopted.

I LOVE roto baseball because its very hard to argue that the best team didn't win once all was said and done.

that said, the H2H format is the best for football I think. I think the best way, and I forget who said it on these forums, is the "double header" method. Where you actually play two matchups that week. That way, you still break even if you dropped a monster on someone, and were simply unlucky.

However, I am not totally sold on the consistency argument for FFL. I tend to pick more conservatively than some, but I usually end up among the top three in scoring. That happens if you rarely lay a stinker. But then again, if you don't really have some big days, that isn't exactly a recipe for always winning either.

Its more maddening, but I have had better overall teams with some players that seemed more inconsistenct. If you consistently get high 80s, low 90s, but rarely into the 100s (somewhat normal scoring), I think you make yourself more vulnerable to losing with a high score. Its just my experience though. the more explosive teams lay eggs sometimes, and I think that skews the numbers.

While you "can't play defense" in fantasy, I don't necessarily think the highest score means you are owed anything. If th ebulk of that score is made up of one or two absoloutely monster weeks, then the rest is avg and middling to worse, are you "better"? or did you catch lightning in a bottle.

Fairest way to solve this I think is moving to roto or the double header.

Of course, I think some kind of roto, with h2H record being one of the categories would be best. I like playing people each week.
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Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:55 pm

That is crap- in football do the wildcards go to the teams with the best point-margain? No. Points is a good tiebreak, but absolutely nothing else.
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