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Kickoff and punt return td debate...

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Postby Munboy » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:21 pm

s75h wrote:Our league uses yahoo. Does that site allow the Td's to still count for the player alone and not for the entire def?


Seems like they allow both. Jones-Drew got credit for his return and the Bears got credit for Hester's return.

This brings up a point, do you get double points for playing the individual and D?? Say you play Dante Hall and you play KC D. DO you get double points for that? :-?
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Postby JasonSeahorn » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:42 pm

Munboy wrote:
s75h wrote:Our league uses yahoo. Does that site allow the Td's to still count for the player alone and not for the entire def?


Seems like they allow both. Jones-Drew got credit for his return and the Bears got credit for Hester's return.

This brings up a point, do you get double points for playing the individual and D?? Say you play Dante Hall and you play KC D. DO you get double points for that? :-?


yes you do. dante hall has a special upside about him if you were to use him as a WR3 because of the potential to return TDs. Too bad Devin Hester is on the defense though...
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Postby mattb47 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:27 pm

JasonSeahorn wrote:
Munboy wrote:
s75h wrote:Our league uses yahoo. Does that site allow the Td's to still count for the player alone and not for the entire def?


Seems like they allow both. Jones-Drew got credit for his return and the Bears got credit for Hester's return.

This brings up a point, do you get double points for playing the individual and D?? Say you play Dante Hall and you play KC D. DO you get double points for that? :-?


yes you do. dante hall has a special upside about him if you were to use him as a WR3 because of the potential to return TDs. Too bad Devin Hester is on the defense though...


It actually depends on the scoring system.....you should never be able to count a TD twice like that for one individual player doing something like that but it's the way some leagues are set up.
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Postby lmcjaho » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:33 am

mattb47 wrote:It actually depends on the scoring system.....you should never be able to count a TD twice like that for one individual player doing something like that but it's the way some leagues are set up.


Why not? You count a Peyton-to-Marvin TD pass twice if you have them both on the roster, why not a Hall and KC/DST return TD if you have them both on the roster?


s75h wrote:Our league uses yahoo. Does that site allow the Td's to still count for the player alone and not for the entire def?



Yes it does - when setting up the league the first section you fill out is for individual stats and there is an option for Return TDs there (with the Rush, Rec, etc stats) and if you select that option the individual will score the points. Later on in the setup is the Def/ST section and there is also an option there for Kickoff and Punt Return TDs and if you leave that blank then ONLY the individual score will apply.
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Postby bdrotoronto » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:56 am

mattb47 wrote:I've never thought that special teams should be included in team defense. They really have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I think the yardage and TDs should go to the individual player (when offensive unless your league uses IDPs) and the kicking goes to the kicker which covers all of the special teams. You don't need to add it into defense because many times they are counterproductive. A poor defense will be scored on plenty thus getting more opportunities for kick returns and possible points.

True, but if you separated the two then Special Teams would be a pretty useless fantasy player since it's so rare and unpredictable when they score a touchdown or block a kick. Having to start a ST on their own would probably be less useful than kickers. You'd have to assign points to return yards to make them relevant. So probably why they add them on to defence, which is already used in most leagues anyway, and is the only other entity you start as a 'unit'.
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Postby mattb47 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:06 am

lmcjaho wrote:
mattb47 wrote:It actually depends on the scoring system.....you should never be able to count a TD twice like that for one individual player doing something like that but it's the way some leagues are set up.


Why not? You count a Peyton-to-Marvin TD pass twice if you have them both on the roster, why not a Hall and KC/DST return TD if you have them both on the roster?


Yes....you count it for both Manning and Harrison because both players actually scored the TD. You don't count it once for Dante Hall scoring a TD and then once more for Dante Hall scoring the TD for his Special teams....it's not the same thing at all.

bdrotoronto wrote:True, but if you separated the two then Special Teams would be a pretty useless fantasy player since it's so rare and unpredictable when they score a touchdown or block a kick. Having to start a ST on their own would probably be less useful than kickers. You'd have to assign points to return yards to make them relevant. So probably why they add them on to defence, which is already used in most leagues anyway, and is the only other entity you start as a 'unit'.


So the reasoning is that since they aren't a great thing by themselves you just stick them onto another "unit" to which they have no relation whatsoever? They are counterproductive like I said earlier, quite often a good "fantasy" special teams is good because their defense is so poor. I don't see what the point is of adding something on there that just rewards poor defense.
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Postby lmcjaho » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:41 am

mattb47 wrote:Yes....you count it for both Manning and Harrison because both players actually scored the TD. You don't count it once for Dante Hall scoring a TD and then once more for Dante Hall scoring the TD for his Special teams....it's not the same thing at all.


IMO it is - in both cases there are only 6 points put on the board for the NFL team that scored the TD.

You are counting the one TD for Hall and the second TD for KC-DST as a UNIT.

Your other argument for whether or not to include ST with defense I will not get involved with because IMO that is totally a matter of personal preference - some of us like it, some of you don't I guess...
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Postby mattb47 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:50 am

lmcjaho wrote:
mattb47 wrote:Yes....you count it for both Manning and Harrison because both players actually scored the TD. You don't count it once for Dante Hall scoring a TD and then once more for Dante Hall scoring the TD for his Special teams....it's not the same thing at all.


IMO it is - in both cases there are only 6 points put on the board for the NFL team that scored the TD.

You are counting the one TD for Hall and the second TD for KC-DST as a UNIT.

Your other argument for whether or not to include ST with defense I will not get involved with because IMO that is totally a matter of personal preference - some of us like it, some of you don't I guess...


How can you say it's the same? In the QB to WR case, you have a QB throwing for a TD, it will be in the statistics as a TD for that player, and you have a WR catching a TD pass, it sill be in the statistics as him receiving for a TD. In the Special teams case, the only player who will receive credit for that TD is Hall, because he is the ONLY one who scored the TD. Should we give the Indianapolis offense a TD too as a UNIT?

And I don't believe you can argue that special teams is NOT counterproductive to what defenses do. Why would you add in something that rewards those teams who receive a lot of kickoff returns meaning they give up a lot of points?? Answer me that without saying "it's personal preference".
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Postby Yellowbird » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:57 am

mattb47 wrote:
lmcjaho wrote:
mattb47 wrote:Yes....you count it for both Manning and Harrison because both players actually scored the TD. You don't count it once for Dante Hall scoring a TD and then once more for Dante Hall scoring the TD for his Special teams....it's not the same thing at all.


IMO it is - in both cases there are only 6 points put on the board for the NFL team that scored the TD.

You are counting the one TD for Hall and the second TD for KC-DST as a UNIT.

Your other argument for whether or not to include ST with defense I will not get involved with because IMO that is totally a matter of personal preference - some of us like it, some of you don't I guess...


How can you say it's the same? In the QB to WR case, you have a QB throwing for a TD, it will be in the statistics as a TD for that player, and you have a WR catching a TD pass, it sill be in the statistics as him receiving for a TD. In the Special teams case, the only player who will receive credit for that TD is Hall, because he is the ONLY one who scored the TD. Should we give the Indianapolis offense a TD too as a UNIT?

And I don't believe you can argue that special teams is NOT counterproductive to what defenses do. Why would you add in something that rewards those teams who receive a lot of kickoff returns meaning they give up a lot of points?? Answer me that without saying "it's personal preference".


It levels the playing field making sure that one D/ST isn't that much greater than the other. The Seattle D may let a lot of points through, but they rack up the sacks and Nate is a decent kick returner.

Tampa had a hot D, but couldn't return kicks to save their life.

And on the Hall comment, yes Hall scored the TD, but there are 10 other players on the field throwing blocks and such.

It's like having a fantasy O-line play, you award them for rushing yards gained and take points away for sacks given up.
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Postby pangbones » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:34 am

mattb47 wrote:I've never thought that special teams should be included in team defense. They really have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I think the yardage and TDs should go to the individual player (when offensive unless your league uses IDPs) and the kicking goes to the kicker which covers all of the special teams. You don't need to add it into defense because many times they are counterproductive. A poor defense will be scored on plenty thus getting more opportunities for kick returns and possible points.




A good defense will force a lot of punts, and thus will have more punt return opportunities. That is not counterproductive.

My league has always combined the 2. The only problem with our scoring is if you have the player that runs back the kick/punt you get 6 points, and the person with the Def/ST would also get the 6 points. If the 2 are playing H2H then it's counterproductive. But the chances of that happening is so small it's not a big deal.

I'm curious Mattb47, so Return TD's just don't count then unless you have the individual player that scored? I'd bet close to half the players that return kicks/punts are defensive players, so that would make alot of possible points unavailable under that premise, unless of course you use IDP's.
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