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Kickoff and punt return td debate...

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Postby mattb47 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:43 am

pangbones wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I've never thought that special teams should be included in team defense. They really have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I think the yardage and TDs should go to the individual player (when offensive unless your league uses IDPs) and the kicking goes to the kicker which covers all of the special teams. You don't need to add it into defense because many times they are counterproductive. A poor defense will be scored on plenty thus getting more opportunities for kick returns and possible points.




A good defense will force a lot of punts, and thus will have more punt return opportunities. That is not counterproductive.

My league has always combined the 2. The only problem with our scoring is if you have the player that runs back the kick/punt you get 6 points, and the person with the Def/ST would also get the 6 points. If the 2 are playing H2H then it's counterproductive. But the chances of that happening is so small it's not a big deal.

I'm curious Mattb47, so Return TD's just don't count then unless you have the individual player that scored? I'd bet close to half the players that return kicks/punts are defensive players, so that would make alot of possible points unavailable under that premise, unless of course you use IDP's.


IDPs are the way to go....you get to the point where you know overall more about the game when you use IDPs and they bring a good dimension to things. It also solves the problem of special teams by being able to give all of the returns and things to the individual players.

A good defense forces punts....yes....but how many punts are actually returnable in comparison to kickoffs? Very few if you look at it. With the amount of fair caught balls and punts out of bounds, there are often very few opportunities for big plays off of punts, kickoffs are a different story altogether though. More yardage, more opportunity for a big play.
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Postby mattb47 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:49 am

Yellowbird wrote:It levels the playing field making sure that one D/ST isn't that much greater than the other. The Seattle D may let a lot of points through, but they rack up the sacks and Nate is a decent kick returner.

Tampa had a hot D, but couldn't return kicks to save their life.

And on the Hall comment, yes Hall scored the TD, but there are 10 other players on the field throwing blocks and such.

It's like having a fantasy O-line play, you award them for rushing yards gained and take points away for sacks given up.


You can look at it as leveling the playing field....but in some cases, say the Chicago defense, it makes the discrepancy even larger between them and the next team because they have easily one of the best special teams in the NFL if not the best.

Do we give points for the WR who made the block that allowed the other WR to score the TD? Didn't think so, so why do we give points for those who block to score on special teams? We don't give points for offensive line (like you noted) or for other blocks made by some of the other players like TEs, RBs, and WRs. What if a RB made a key block picking up a blitz that allowed the TD to happen? Why isn't that rewarded too? There's just too many things you don't reward people for to add in blocking on a return as being worthy of points.
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Postby Kensat30 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:38 pm

mattb47 wrote:I've never thought that special teams should be included in team defense. They really have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I think the yardage and TDs should go to the individual player (when offensive unless your league uses IDPs) and the kicking goes to the kicker which covers all of the special teams. You don't need to add it into defense because many times they are counterproductive. A poor defense will be scored on plenty thus getting more opportunities for kick returns and possible points.


The problem with this thinking, is that generally you have D/ST or just D, but virtually never is there a ST-only category. Why ignore the ST side of the NFL in fantasy football, especially considering they can put 6 points on the board just as easily as a QB/RB/WR/D. Special teams are a big part of the game. I say lump it together with D/ST unless you want to make an effort to put a scoring system in place for an ST-only position.

Possible scoring categories for ST-only?

. return yardage
. return yardage allowed
. special teams TD
. punts inside the 20
. fumble recoveries on kicks
. onside kicks recovered
.etc

Like several posters have already mentioned, a team with a good D is not necessarily the best target for ST-only. But at the same time, a team like the Chicago is obviously very good at both.
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Postby FatFoot » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:55 pm

In my leagues, it's not Def. It's DST. It's combined. If the Special Teams gets a TD, it goes to the DST. If the Defense gets a TD, it goes to the DST. That's the way it's always been done, and is exactly the way it should be, IMO. You don't draft a team's offense. IMO, the only people who would have a problem with this are people who are losing to Bears DST blockbuster scores. That's what I'd refer to as "tough luck."
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Re: Kickoff and punt return td debate...

Postby The Lung » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:07 am

I am in six leagues this year, and in one of them (a dynasty league team which I newly inherited) does not count punt return or kick return TDs for individual players. For the record, I have been playing fantasy football since 2001 with an average of about 4 leagues per year and this is the first league I have EVER been in which did not count punt return or kick return TDs for individual players, with just the fantasy defense / special teams scoring the 6 points.

Now I fully understand that leagues differ however as to whether the fantasy defense ALSO receives the credit...some argue that if you have both the player and the defense it is double dipping and you are getting credit twice for the same touchdown which intuitively seems strange. But I have never, EVER, seen just the defense getting the score.

However, for any of you that watched last night's game, even though New Orleans lost, WITHOUT A DOUBT the two punt return touchdowns by Reggie Bush were almost entirely the story of the game and had a major impact on its outcome. And if fantasy football is supposed to mimic NFL football, why does my player who scored those touchdowns not receive the credit? That, intuitively, seems very very wrong.

As I sit here today I am steaming about losing my matchup by less than 6 points, and either one of those Reggie Bush punt return TDs would have given me the win. I would like to know what others feel about this, and how I can get the league / commissioner to change their minds about this.
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Re: Kickoff and punt return td debate...

Postby Dan Lambskin » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:02 pm

The Lung wrote:I am in six leagues this year, and in one of them (a dynasty league team which I newly inherited) does not count punt return or kick return TDs for individual players. For the record, I have been playing fantasy football since 2001 with an average of about 4 leagues per year and this is the first league I have EVER been in which did not count punt return or kick return TDs for individual players, with just the fantasy defense / special teams scoring the 6 points.

Now I fully understand that leagues differ however as to whether the fantasy defense ALSO receives the credit...some argue that if you have both the player and the defense it is double dipping and you are getting credit twice for the same touchdown which intuitively seems strange. But I have never, EVER, seen just the defense getting the score.

However, for any of you that watched last night's game, even though New Orleans lost, WITHOUT A DOUBT the two punt return touchdowns by Reggie Bush were almost entirely the story of the game and had a major impact on its outcome. And if fantasy football is supposed to mimic NFL football, why does my player who scored those touchdowns not receive the credit? That, intuitively, seems very very wrong.

As I sit here today I am steaming about losing my matchup by less than 6 points, and either one of those Reggie Bush punt return TDs would have given me the win. I would like to know what others feel about this, and how I can get the league / commissioner to change their minds about this.


ive mainly played in the Double Dip leagues, or the D/ST Only leagues...i actually prefer it to count for the D/ST only

my reasoning is that there just arent that many players that play enough to make a fantasy impact AND return kicks/punts (Bush and Desean Jackson are the only ones i can think of right now) and i definately think the D/ST should get credit for it and dont like the Double Dip, ergo, D/ST only
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