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The QB is not the whole team!

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Postby deluxe_247 » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:19 pm

deacon wrote:
Vick has 4 complete years as a starter so if I only compared him to other 4 year starters the numbers would be in Vicks favor!


huh?

so you ommit 2 of his crappy seasons (look at his passing percentages in those years) because he was hurt and say to compare him to other 4 year starters, even if he is a 6th year starter? im sorry but injuries are part of the equation with vick because he runs so frequently and is so small.

also, palmer only has played 3 years...his first year he was benched behind kitna the entire season.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:27 pm

Total yards and touchdowns does nothing in telling how good a guy was. Look at Vick's total yards per game, also his TD:turnover ratio, and compare it to other QBs. Its not good at all.
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Postby deerayfan072 » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:31 pm

maddog60 wrote:Total yards and touchdowns does nothing in telling how good a guy was. Look at Vick's total yards per game, also his TD:turnover ratio, and compare it to other QBs. Its not good at all.


Yea, that was my point with my post earlier about LT
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Postby eman » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:55 am

It's true though, Vick gets way too much blame for his teams lack of success. He is a talented qb, and I think on any team without a horrid coach and underwhelming WR's he could find much greater success. I think it would be better for him and for the Falcons as well as the other team involved if they traded him for a more typical qb with equal trade value like Penny or Green though.
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Postby disgruntledjetsfan » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:41 am

Wait just a second, deeray....you can't just compare vick to other QBs based on "QB Stats". That's absurd. So you are going to omit his rushing yards, and the amount of times he creates first downs when no other QB could because it is not what a "traditional" QB does? That's ridiculous, I'm sorry.

Although Vick doesn't put up incredible passing stats, much like WV's Patrick White, who was unreal today against GT, Vick makes plays that no one else in the game can (Vince Young will do it too, just not as well as Vick). How many times have you seen Vick, on a 3rd down with no one open, use his legs to elude the defense and pick up a miraculous first down? Countless times...


So I'm really sick of people saying Vick sucks because he doesn't have great accuracy or he doesn't have a pass first mentality. The fact of the matter is, he is a straight up play maker, and so what if he doesn't have a passer rating of 90 or he doesn't throw for 30 TDs in a season? I don't think he is the problem in Atlanta...
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:26 am

The problem with the Falcons is not Michael Vick. He is a good NFL QB. The problem is the fact that Vick makes so much money he hurts the taem when it comes to cap issues.
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Postby deerayfan072 » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:16 am

disgruntledjetsfan wrote:Wait just a second, deeray....you can't just compare vick to other QBs based on "QB Stats". That's absurd. So you are going to omit his rushing yards, and the amount of times he creates first downs when no other QB could because it is not what a "traditional" QB does? That's ridiculous, I'm sorry.

Although Vick doesn't put up incredible passing stats, much like WV's Patrick White, who was unreal today against GT, Vick makes plays that no one else in the game can (Vince Young will do it too, just not as well as Vick). How many times have you seen Vick, on a 3rd down with no one open, use his legs to elude the defense and pick up a miraculous first down? Countless times...


So I'm really sick of people saying Vick sucks because he doesn't have great accuracy or he doesn't have a pass first mentality. The fact of the matter is, he is a straight up play maker, and so what if he doesn't have a passer rating of 90 or he doesn't throw for 30 TDs in a season? I don't think he is the problem in Atlanta...


Like i said, he is a great Athlete. Your right in saying you need to include his rushing stats so it encompasses what he really is, but you could have done the same with Randall Cunningham earlier in his career and i don't think most would say Randall was a great NFL QB, or at least i wouldnt, again great athlete. Its not that he doesn't have a pass first mentality, its that he is not accurate enough to throw the ball. You do have to look at his TD/TO ratio which is bad. You can't be a great NFL QB throwing the ball like that it just doesn't work in the NFL
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Postby eaglesrule » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:36 pm

comparing vick to randall is an insult to randall. randall was a much better passer than vick, and came darn close to 1000 rush yards himself, but his passing numbers to go with it were better.

As far as vick goes, yes, he can make plays others can't, but he has far too many 150 passing, 100 rush games, that in the grand scheme of things, simply don't help the team THAT much.

With most elite qbs, you can generally expect 280-300 yards of offense.

Even if vick gets plays others do with their feet, he is sacrificing about 30 yards of field position per game.
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Postby deacon » Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:58 pm

eaglesrule wrote:comparing vick to randall is an insult to randall. randall was a much better passer than vick, and came darn close to 1000 rush yards himself, but his passing numbers to go with it were better.

As far as vick goes, yes, he can make plays others can't, but he has far too many 150 passing, 100 rush games, that in the grand scheme of things, simply don't help the team THAT much.

With most elite qbs, you can generally expect 280-300 yards of offense.
Even if vick gets plays others do with their feet, he is sacrificing about 30 yards of field position per game.


What exactly are you basing your comments on? Certainly not facts! Let's look at some facts:

Although I don't know what you consider 'elite' QBs I will assume the most prolific QBs of todays game will qualify.

Brady has had exactly 3 games this year with 280-300yds passing. The Patriots are 2-1 in those games

P. Manning has had 8 games with 280-300yds passing. The Colts are 4-4 in those games.

Hasslebeck has not had a game this year with 280-300 yds passing.

C. Palmer has had exactly 2 games with 280-300yds passing. The Bengals are 1-1 in those games.

So the facts show that even the best of the best QBs (P. Manning) only have 280-300yds passing about half of the time (16 game season) and even then it in no way gaurantees a win!

Winning is more than about stats! Kurt Warner has had the most 300+ yd passing games in the previous 2 years but I don't see him winning many games.

That 'sacrificing about 30yds of field position per game' is so absurd I don't even know how to respond to that.
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Postby knapplc » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:20 pm

How about this - can everyone post where Vick ranked in their leagues this year? That should give a broad spectrum of his worth over many different scoring formats, and would put facts to statements.

Yes, I know this would only be a snapshot of one year in his career, but I highly doubt anyone has archived stats from years gone by. If you do, post 'em.
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