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Week 20 GC: New England @ Indianapolis

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Postby Jimboozie » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:54 am

Thank God the Patriots were knocked out. I don't have the stomach to watch them win another one so soon.

It was so awesome to see Brady make the big mistake, or choke, at the end. :-) ;-D ;-D ;-D
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Postby quitesanemax » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:37 am

Jimboozie wrote:Thank God the Patriots were knocked out. I don't have the stomach to watch them win another one so soon.

It was so awesome to see Brady make the big mistake, or choke, at the end. :-) ;-D ;-D ;-D


Shows how well you were paying attention to the game. Since Brady didn't have time, at that point, to be conservative, there was a good chance he would throw into an interception. The last minute drives seem to be either hit or miss. It wasn't Brady who choked.

It was ten times worse than that. The Patriots take pride in their defense... and it is their defense that choked big time.

Hey, I don't know if it is true, because they obviously won't use it as an excuse, but I'm just going to go on believing it was that flu bug going around the team that killed them. lol.
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Postby mattb47 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:52 am

quitesanemax wrote:
Jimboozie wrote:Thank God the Patriots were knocked out. I don't have the stomach to watch them win another one so soon.

It was so awesome to see Brady make the big mistake, or choke, at the end. :-) ;-D ;-D ;-D


Shows how well you were paying attention to the game. Since Brady didn't have time, at that point, to be conservative, there was a good chance he would throw into an interception. The last minute drives seem to be either hit or miss. It wasn't Brady who choked.

It was ten times worse than that. The Patriots take pride in their defense... and it is their defense that choked big time.

Hey, I don't know if it is true, because they obviously won't use it as an excuse, but I'm just going to go on believing it was that flu bug going around the team that killed them. lol.


You can't put it all on the defense....it was also the offense that couldn't get a drive going to help their defense to get a breather before sending them right back onto the field for another lengthy Indy drive.
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:18 am

pmaz wrote:Hello, I thougt Fletcher's second foot was out of bounds on that catch ...........nobody questioned that catch..........anybody see it?


LOL. Do you mean Gaffney?? He got 1 foot down and was pushed out of bounds nefore he could get the 2nd foot down. It was ruled a pushout and a TD. There was no evidence to reverse it.

mattb47 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:To expand.......Manning has had some playoff games where just playing mediocre could have won. Take 1999 against Tenn. They lost by 3 and Manning went 19-43 with 0 TD and 0 INT. McNair did nothing of note although George had a great game. I would think that had he played good, they could have won that game. In 2000, they lost another close game to Miami, who got a pitiful performance from Jay Fiedler that day. Lamar Smith ran all over them but Manning had another pedestrian effort. In 2003, he played terribly against NE in a game that they lost by 10 points. You could also add the Pittsburgh game last year. His nemesis was gone and they had the championship game at home. He didn't play bad in that game but, just like in the others, had he played either good or very good, they could have taken at least 1 or 2 of them.

I am not saying that Manning is bad. I think that he is a great regular season QB and he will be an immortal 1 day. He just needs to consistently step up his game in the playoffs. That's where the difference lies between him and Brady to me.


And what I'm saying is that if he had the team surrounding him that Brady had for those years, particularly the defense, he could have easily had just as much success. Your examples are exactly what I'm talking about....the entire success of the Colts in the past playoff games depended almost solely on Manning playing well. He wasn't able to have an OK day and them still win because their defense would give up too many points.

So for Manning to be the best QB he has to both be the most talented and best skill wise and has to do well in the playoffs as many times as Brady has? So 1 superbowl wouldn't be enough to put him at the top but Brady who definitely has played well in the postseason but is certainly not as talented of a QB skill wise as Manning is gets the pass to the top even if Manning wins this SB? Not sure how that works....but ok.... :-?


Wow!! You really know how to take something and run with it. Manning has the salary. He has the offensive weapons. Not able to have an O.K. day?? He has had pitiful days in the playoffs and his team still almost won. Sure, they had a terrible run defense but they still had a chance to win with even an average performance from Manning. You talk about all of the advantages that Brady has had. The defense?? Obviously better for NE but they aren't throwing the passes. What about the weapons?? I know that they all haven't been there the entire time but they had Manning, James, Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, and Clark. Pollard was good, too. With those weapons, he should have had at least 1 excellent effort against some team not named the Broncos or the Chiefs. Like I said, even an average performance could have taken at least 1 of those games.
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Postby treat24 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:19 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
pmaz wrote:Hello, I thougt Fletcher's second foot was out of bounds on that catch ...........nobody questioned that catch..........anybody see it?


LOL. Do you mean Gaffney?? He got 1 foot down and was pushed out of bounds nefore he could get the 2nd foot down. It was ruled a pushout and a TD. There was no evidence to reverse it.

mattb47 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:To expand.......Manning has had some playoff games where just playing mediocre could have won. Take 1999 against Tenn. They lost by 3 and Manning went 19-43 with 0 TD and 0 INT. McNair did nothing of note although George had a great game. I would think that had he played good, they could have won that game. In 2000, they lost another close game to Miami, who got a pitiful performance from Jay Fiedler that day. Lamar Smith ran all over them but Manning had another pedestrian effort. In 2003, he played terribly against NE in a game that they lost by 10 points. You could also add the Pittsburgh game last year. His nemesis was gone and they had the championship game at home. He didn't play bad in that game but, just like in the others, had he played either good or very good, they could have taken at least 1 or 2 of them.

I am not saying that Manning is bad. I think that he is a great regular season QB and he will be an immortal 1 day. He just needs to consistently step up his game in the playoffs. That's where the difference lies between him and Brady to me.


And what I'm saying is that if he had the team surrounding him that Brady had for those years, particularly the defense, he could have easily had just as much success. Your examples are exactly what I'm talking about....the entire success of the Colts in the past playoff games depended almost solely on Manning playing well. He wasn't able to have an OK day and them still win because their defense would give up too many points.

So for Manning to be the best QB he has to both be the most talented and best skill wise and has to do well in the playoffs as many times as Brady has? So 1 superbowl wouldn't be enough to put him at the top but Brady who definitely has played well in the postseason but is certainly not as talented of a QB skill wise as Manning is gets the pass to the top even if Manning wins this SB? Not sure how that works....but ok.... :-?


Wow!! You really know how to take something and run with it. Manning has the salary. He has the offensive weapons. Not able to have an O.K. day?? He has had pitiful days in the playoffs and his team still almost won. Sure, they had a terrible run defense but they still had a chance to win with even an average performance from Manning. You talk about all of the advantages that Brady has had. The defense?? Obviously better for NE but they aren't throwing the passes. What about the weapons?? I know that they all haven't been there the entire time but they had Manning, James, Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, and Clark. Pollard was good, too. With those weapons, he should have had at least 1 excellent effort against some team not named the Broncos or the Chiefs. Like I said, even an average performance could have taken at least 1 of those games.


you're forgetting one thing with mentioning all those "named" players... a great QB makes everyone around him better... take culpepper and randall cunningham away from randy moss and tell me how good he is? ... put edge in arizona... how good is he? take stokely, clark, pollard, etc... on worse teams... who knows... maybe harrison and wayne would be 3rd tier WR.... you never know...
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Postby quitesanemax » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:54 pm

mattb47 wrote:
quitesanemax wrote:
Jimboozie wrote:Thank God the Patriots were knocked out. I don't have the stomach to watch them win another one so soon.

It was so awesome to see Brady make the big mistake, or choke, at the end. :-) ;-D ;-D ;-D


Shows how well you were paying attention to the game. Since Brady didn't have time, at that point, to be conservative, there was a good chance he would throw into an interception. The last minute drives seem to be either hit or miss. It wasn't Brady who choked.

It was ten times worse than that. The Patriots take pride in their defense... and it is their defense that choked big time.

Hey, I don't know if it is true, because they obviously won't use it as an excuse, but I'm just going to go on believing it was that flu bug going around the team that killed them. lol.


You can't put it all on the defense....it was also the offense that couldn't get a drive going to help their defense to get a breather before sending them right back onto the field for another lengthy Indy drive.


Naw, I think it was more the d this time around. That defense has handled much worse performances by the offense than that... take the SD/NE game, for instance. The NE defense we saw yesterday just wasn't up to the task. Not that I can complain much, that defense is what got them where they were this year. It can be as great as any defense, but last night mother nature had her say. No matter what the offense did, I don't think that d was going to be able to do much. Lets not forget that that offense put up 27 points... they did their part. Normally, thats plenty of points for the NE defense. It is impossible to expect them to play up to their normal physical standards when half the defense has the flu, though. It isn't ever going to be confirmed, because the players on that defense aren't the type to come up with excuses like that... its just what I believe happened. This is just not a defense that has ever gotten winded at halftime in the past. In some of their worst losses, their defense still plays hard until the end of the game... even in the Miami massacre earlier this season. Looking back on it, about halftime is when I would expect the tiredness to really start hitting them, if they had the flu. Kudos to Indy and their players, and staff for recognizing this as quickly as they did, and taking full advantage of it. They could have easily given up, being down 21-6 at the time. And at halftime, Peyton looked like he was ready to, but Dungy must have had a talk with him.

Good luck to Indy in the Superbowl!
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:30 pm

treat24 wrote:you're forgetting one thing with mentioning all those "named" players... a great QB makes everyone around him better... take culpepper and randall cunningham away from randy moss and tell me how good he is? ... put edge in arizona... how good is he? take stokely, clark, pollard, etc... on worse teams... who knows... maybe harrison and wayne would be 3rd tier WR.... you never know...


They keep replacing them with solid players, though. James with Addai, Pollard with Clark.

You know what's funny?? We have continued this thread adding page onto page about a hypothetical. I say we because I am as guilty as anyone. Let's let Manning win his SB and then he can add a notch to his belt. I have no doubt that he will be 1 of the best ever, if not the best ever, when he retires. I also know that I will be rooting for the Colts. ;-D
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Postby knapplc » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:13 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
treat24 wrote:you're forgetting one thing with mentioning all those "named" players... a great QB makes everyone around him better... take culpepper and randall cunningham away from randy moss and tell me how good he is? ... put edge in arizona... how good is he? take stokely, clark, pollard, etc... on worse teams... who knows... maybe harrison and wayne would be 3rd tier WR.... you never know...


They keep replacing them with solid players, though. James with Addai, Pollard with Clark.

You know what's funny?? We have continued this thread adding page onto page about a hypothetical. I say we because I am as guilty as anyone. Let's let Manning win his SB and then he can add a notch to his belt. I have no doubt that he will be 1 of the best ever, if not the best ever, when he retires. I also know that I will be rooting for the Colts. ;-D


You're dead to me, Lo!!! :,-(
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Postby Cowboys 4 life » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:17 pm

Jimboozie wrote:Thank God the Patriots were knocked out. I don't have the stomach to watch them win another one so soon.

It was so awesome to see Brady make the big mistake, or choke, at the end. :-) ;-D ;-D ;-D


I agree. I loved that part of the game. Perfect ending to see Brady choke like that. Of coarse everyone and their moms will still have Brady on a pedastool but the fact is he threw an int on the possible winning drive which is essentually a choke.

Heck if they say Manning choked after Vandy's missed kick last year then this is definately a choke.
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Postby maddog60 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:52 pm

All this talk about Manning not even playing average in the playoffs, allow me to play devil's advocate:

2005
vs. PIT: 290 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, ~58% completions.
They played the best D at the time, and lost a close one 18-21. The defense held well, but can you say this was a bad game by Manning?

2004
vs. NE: 238 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, 64% completions.
Not a terribly good game, though only 1 turnover, though the catch -and-fumble by Wayne probably gets mistaken as an INT when Peyton's performance is thought of. Also, Colts inability to stop Dillon from averaging ~7 ypc resulted in a 38-22 min time of possession favoring the Pats.

vs. DEN: 457 yards, 5 TDs (one of them QB sneak), 1 INT, 81% completions.
Ironic, Peyton doesn't have an average or good day, but a god-like day, and the Colts win. I shouldn't take that much, but it seems to.

2003
vs. NE: 237 yards, 1 TD, 4 INTs, ~50% completions.
Obviously, if you throw 4 INTs, you are having a terrible day and should never win (unless you're like enough to play against Brad Johnson, where a 10 QB rating would be good enough).

vs. KC: 304 yards, 3 TDs, 0 turnovers, 73% completions.
Yep, Manning has a great day Colts win. Average or bad day, they lose.

vs. DEN: 377 yards, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, 85% completions.
Peyton clearly has no problem throwing against Champ Bailey, but for some reason Ty Law is his kryptonite.

2002
vs. NYJ: 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 turnovers, 45% completions.
Terrible day and they get blown out. Interestingly enough, time of possession is 40-20 in favor of NY, and once again that run defense didn't even give the offense much of a chance to comeback.

Now consider that Tom Brady has won with stats like:

280 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 53% completions.
144 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 67% completions.
237 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 59% completions.
201 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 51% completions.

and it becomes obvious that the team surrounding each of these QBs matter significantly. Brady can have a mediocre, even bad day, and his team can rally to help him win. Manning cannot afford to be less than stellar, or his team loses.
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