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Week 20 GC: New England @ Indianapolis

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Postby Cowboys 4 life » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:00 pm

maddog60 wrote:All this talk about Manning not even playing average in the playoffs, allow me to play devil's advocate:

2005
vs. PIT: 290 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, ~58% completions.
They played the best D at the time, and lost a close one 18-21. The defense held well, but can you say this was a bad game by Manning?

2004
vs. NE: 238 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, 64% completions.
Not a terribly good game, though only 1 turnover, though the catch -and-fumble by Wayne probably gets mistaken as an INT when Peyton's performance is thought of. Also, Colts inability to stop Dillon from averaging ~7 ypc resulted in a 38-22 min time of possession favoring the Pats.

vs. DEN: 457 yards, 5 TDs (one of them QB sneak), 1 INT, 81% completions.
Ironic, Peyton doesn't have an average or good day, but a god-like day, and the Colts win. I shouldn't take that much, but it seems to.

2003
vs. NE: 237 yards, 1 TD, 4 INTs, ~50% completions.
Obviously, if you throw 4 INTs, you are having a terrible day and should never win (unless you're like enough to play against Brad Johnson, where a 10 QB rating would be good enough).

vs. KC: 304 yards, 3 TDs, 0 turnovers, 73% completions.
Yep, Manning has a great day Colts win. Average or bad day, they lose.

vs. DEN: 377 yards, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, 85% completions.
Peyton clearly has no problem throwing against Champ Bailey, but for some reason Ty Law is his kryptonite.

2002
vs. NYJ: 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 turnovers, 45% completions.
Terrible day and they get blown out. Interestingly enough, time of possession is 40-20 in favor of NY, and once again that run defense didn't even give the offense much of a chance to comeback.

Now consider that Tom Brady has won with stats like:

280 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 53% completions.
144 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 67% completions.
237 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 59% completions.
201 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 51% completions.

and it becomes obvious that the team surrounding each of these QBs matter significantly. Brady can have a mediocre, even bad day, and his team can rally to help him win. Manning cannot afford to be less than stellar, or his team loses.


Wow Maddog! Great point. This is as much proof as any that Brady didn't win the super bowls. The TEAM did.
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Postby RocketsDWM » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:22 am

Those are only 4 out of the 14 games he has played in the post-season. Why not share the whole picture and not just certain ones that make your point look good?
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:18 am

Cowboys 4 life wrote:
maddog60 wrote:All this talk about Manning not even playing average in the playoffs, allow me to play devil's advocate:

2005
vs. PIT: 290 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, ~58% completions.
They played the best D at the time, and lost a close one 18-21. The defense held well, but can you say this was a bad game by Manning?

2004
vs. NE: 238 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, 64% completions.
Not a terribly good game, though only 1 turnover, though the catch -and-fumble by Wayne probably gets mistaken as an INT when Peyton's performance is thought of. Also, Colts inability to stop Dillon from averaging ~7 ypc resulted in a 38-22 min time of possession favoring the Pats.

vs. DEN: 457 yards, 5 TDs (one of them QB sneak), 1 INT, 81% completions.
Ironic, Peyton doesn't have an average or good day, but a god-like day, and the Colts win. I shouldn't take that much, but it seems to.

2003
vs. NE: 237 yards, 1 TD, 4 INTs, ~50% completions.
Obviously, if you throw 4 INTs, you are having a terrible day and should never win (unless you're like enough to play against Brad Johnson, where a 10 QB rating would be good enough).

vs. KC: 304 yards, 3 TDs, 0 turnovers, 73% completions.
Yep, Manning has a great day Colts win. Average or bad day, they lose.

vs. DEN: 377 yards, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, 85% completions.
Peyton clearly has no problem throwing against Champ Bailey, but for some reason Ty Law is his kryptonite.

2002
vs. NYJ: 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 turnovers, 45% completions.
Terrible day and they get blown out. Interestingly enough, time of possession is 40-20 in favor of NY, and once again that run defense didn't even give the offense much of a chance to comeback.

Now consider that Tom Brady has won with stats like:

280 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 53% completions.
144 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 67% completions.
237 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 59% completions.
201 yards, 1 TD, 0 turnovers, 51% completions.

and it becomes obvious that the team surrounding each of these QBs matter significantly. Brady can have a mediocre, even bad day, and his team can rally to help him win. Manning cannot afford to be less than stellar, or his team loses.


Wow Maddog! Great point. This is as much proof as any that Brady didn't win the super bowls. The TEAM did.


Agreed. Nothing like cherry picking the stats of your choice to make a point. ;-D

I did it on another site but can't find it right now. Let's compare Brady regular season to playoffs and Manning regular season to playoffs and see what we come up with.

Do you guys really hate Brady that much?? I certainly don't hate Manning. He's awesome. I even have a blue #18 authentic in my closet that I have had for years. I like him a lot. It just seems like a lot of this hate for Brady stems from trying to find a chink in the Pats' armor after all of this success.
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Postby quitesanemax » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:33 pm

Cowboys 4 life wrote:
Wow Maddog! Great point. This is as much proof as any that Brady didn't win the super bowls. The TEAM did.


Of course it was the TEAM that won! How long have you been a football fan??? Football is a team sport, and the Patriots, the last few years, have been so good because they have taken TEAM to a new level. Pats fans usually argue that when it comes to clutch play, no QB playing in the NFL now is better than Tom Brady in that department. The stats just don't show that.

Also, Peyton Manning had to carry that team... why is that? Because the Colts have spent so much money on Peyton Manning, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison... so they can't buy themselves a defense... generally.

But it looks like the Colts might get that monkey off their back after all. Good win by the Colts this past weekend. It might require me to do some rethinking about defenses winning championships in the NFL... but then, that depends on what the Bears are able to do.
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Postby quitesanemax » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:41 pm

maddog60 wrote:
vs. DEN: 377 yards, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, 85% completions.
Peyton clearly has no problem throwing against Champ Bailey, but for some reason Ty Law is his kryptonite.



In 2003 Champ Bailey wasn't on the Broncos. But he was in 2004, so your point is still valid. It doesn't make sense to me either.
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Postby zevon » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:13 pm

Ah the Brady-Manning debate rages and the choke word makes the rounds.
Wanna know who choked in this game?
Reche Caldwell.
Choked away a TD and then a First Down(and quite possibly more) with 3 1/2 minutes left. Both balls hit him right in the hands.
So I can be PO'd at him and bitter or give props to the Colts.
I prefer not to be bitter.
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Postby loganberries » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:56 pm

Bottom line, both are great QB's. Think about this...put Manning on the Pats and Brady on the Colts. I feel Brady has had to play at a higher level given the talent he has to work with. How scary would Brady be with Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark, and Addai at his disposal......something to ponder.
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Postby zevon » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:12 pm

loganberries wrote:Bottom line, both are great QB's. Think about this...put Manning on the Pats and Brady on the Colts. I feel Brady has had to play at a higher level given the talent he has to work with. How scary would Brady be with Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark, and Addai at his disposal......something to ponder.


And home games in a dome on turf to boot...

Good luck to your guys in the Super Bowl.
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Postby loganberries » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:31 pm

Thanks zevon. Most of us Colt fans have the upmost respect for the Pats and how they go about their business. What the Pats have accomplished over the past 6 years or so is simply amazing. Hopefully we can get an AFC victory on the big day.
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Postby roninmedia » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:46 pm

zevon wrote:Ah the Brady-Manning debate rages and the choke word makes the rounds.
Wanna know who choked in this game?
Reche Caldwell.
Choked away a TD and then a First Down(and quite possibly more) with 3 1/2 minutes left. Both balls hit him right in the hands.
So I can be PO'd at him and bitter or give props to the Colts.
I prefer not to be bitter.


First drop, the next play, Gaffney scored a touchdown.
Second drop, he had a defender running full speed towards him. No TD and possibly not even a first down.

Anyway, great game to both teams. Go Colts, Bucs in 07!
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