Azrael wrote:I still can't see how a few extra bucks out of our pockets is anywhere near worth a human life. Think about it like this...out of all of the abortions, what if we've killed the person who would have cured AIDS or Cancer.
How about children living in low social-economic classes around the world who would never get the chances to do great things in life because disease takes their lives or they never get a chance for proper schooling because they must help support the family? What if there is some child in Africa who is a genius among geniuses who has the potential to rid the world of all disease but he himself will die from AIDs or never gets the chance for schooling?
In terms of lives and children who need your help, take a look at the number of children who are waiting to be adopted. Children who need a second chance but it may be their first real chance. We already have a fair number of children (Almost any query on how many children are awaiting adoption in the USA returned a number over of 100,000) who need a chance and deserve a family and have not received their chance yet.
Look around the world. Look at poverty, the despair and the hard daily life many people face in the USA and the even greater number worldwide. I find it hard that we can not and some people will not devote the time and money to properly help them but we can and would support the number of children who would be alive if abortion was illegal (In 2003, Alan Guttmacher Institute reported 1,287,000 and the CDC reported 848,163).
Even humanity is not all the same. During the Holocaust, a concentration camp worker switched the numbers of children with senior citizens so the seniors would be sent to the gas chambers. In that case, we value youth. If you were in the center of a burning stem cell lab with a baby in one corner of the room and a container containing hundreds of embryos, which corner would you run to? I think a mother should be given the choice of determining life and the value of life in her own body because at the moment, life is an scientific, moral, ethical, or religious definition. I refuse to say one person is right over another because we don't know the right answer.
Ronin, those are great points but none of them take precedence over the possibility that abortion is killing a human being. None of the things you mention make it OK to murder a person, in or out of the womb. *IF* that is a child in the womb and not some impersonal mass of cells, every point you raise is moot in the abortion debate.
Further, I would contend that every point you raise is not pro-abortion, but pro-planned parenthood (the concept, not the organization). Across the world we have too many births, we have too many orphans, and we have too many deadbeat parents. Changing our sexual habits from wanton, unprotected sex to RESPONSIBLE sex where sperm never meets egg is the key.
knapplc wrote:Ronin, those are great points but none of them take precedence over the possibility that abortion is killing a human being. None of the things you mention make it OK to murder a person, in or out of the womb. *IF* that is a child in the womb and not some impersonal mass of cells, every point you raise is moot in the abortion debate.
Fair enough. But thats exactly why a woman should be given a choice. She may believe it is not a possibility or she does not contend IF, because she believes the latter statement that it is "some impersonal mass of cells" (Remember in our dark American past when parts of the USA didn't regard African Americans as human). Because if someone is defining as life strongly based on their religious view, I feel that person is forcing their religious views (I would know about forcing religious views because I'm not Christian and living in the south).
knapplc wrote:Ronin, those are great points but none of them take precedence over the possibility that abortion is killing a human being. None of the things you mention make it OK to murder a person, in or out of the womb. *IF* that is a child in the womb and not some impersonal mass of cells, every point you raise is moot in the abortion debate.
Fair enough. But thats exactly why a woman should be given a choice. She may believe it is not a possibility or she does not contend IF, because she believes the latter statement that it is "some impersonal mass of cells". Because if someone is defining as life strongly based on their religious view, I feel that person is forcing their religious views (I would know about forcing religious views because I'm not Christian and living in the south).
But it's not just a Christian view, it's a view based on science. Many doctors and scientists view life as beginning at conception. In fact, the science evidence for it being a human far outweighs the evidence that it is not human.
knapplc wrote:But it's not just a Christian view, it's a view based on science. Many doctors and scientists view life as beginning at conception. In fact, the science evidence for it being a human far outweighs the evidence that it is not human.
Evolution, anyone? Global warming, anyone? Overwhelming scientific evidence...but we still have doubters out there.
"murder" - an action must involve the intentional killing of innocent human life which is a "person." This is the absolute key, essential element of the whole definition. If the innocent human life which is intentionally killed does not constitute a person, than no "murder" has been committed.
I will agree the fetus is living, but I will not say it is fully a human.
roninmedia wrote:I will agree the fetus is living, but I will not say it is fully a human.
That makes no sense to me at all.
moonhead wrote:i think this whole abortion thing is a bit overblown. i don't understand why people feel the need to force their belief system on other people that either don't care or don't want it. it's as simple as this: if you don't believe abortion is right, then don't have one. but there is no reason that anyone should be able to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do with their own bodies based upon someone else's beliefs. and i understand that some people view this as murder. well, ok. let god figure that out in the end. i just don't understand the morality argument. so you don't believe in getting drunk. don't. so you don't believe in abortion. don't have one. it is not your place to limit someone's options. that's just, like, my opinion, man.
Would your opinion be the same about someone standing in front of a tank and putting a daisy in the barrel? Same principle isn't it? The flower-child simply wants the killing to stop. So do pro-lifers.
You would think pro-lifers would be opposed to killing issues such as the death penalty and war (with too-little-too-late troop surges) but it's generally the other way around.
5 wrote:You would think pro-lifers would be opposed to killing issues such as the death penalty and war (with too-little-too-late troop surges) but it's generally the other way around.
I just find that very interesting.
A lot of pro-lifers are Christians and a lot of Christians oppose the death penalty. As far as war goes, it doesn't apply. War is necessary at times. It happens. Always has, always will. We can't always stereotype and assume if you're for one issue, you're obviously for, or opposed, to another. Doesn't make sense.
5 wrote:You would think pro-lifers would be opposed to killing issues such as the death penalty and war (with too-little-too-late troop surges) but it's generally the other way around.
I just find that very interesting.
A lot of pro-lifers are Christians and a lot of Christians oppose the death penalty. As far as war goes, it doesn't apply. War is necessary at times. It happens. Always has, always will. We can't always stereotype and assume if you're for one issue, you're obviously for, or opposed, to another. Doesn't make sense.
Here's the difference with the death penalty:
Convicted convict - Generally guilty of murder or another heinous crime involving somebody's death.
Aborted unborn child - Not Guilty of anything. Aborted children are the victims of undeserved execution.
As for war...
War sucks. I, for one, hate it. I look foreward to the day that there is no war, but that won't be a day when man rules this earth. As long as there is sinful man, I'm afraid there will be war.
Here's a question: "Why does a killer get charged with murder if kills a wanted unborn child?"
Yo, Met... thanks for the sig! GO DUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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by roninmedia » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:27 pm 
