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Postby treat24 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:28 pm

joelamosobadiah wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
joelamosobadiah wrote:
knapplc wrote:I hope for the sake of you and that little one in your avatar that you can quit, abe.


I thought that was Abe. :-? :*) :-b


He said abe. He wasn't referring to me, though I did smoke at one time. It was the toughest habit to break by far. Staying busy and chewing a lot of gum helped, but it was still very hard.


I was making a joke about the avatar comment.

sorry, I guess not the place for a joke. :*)


i got it man... just didn't feel like adding to the threads seriousness with a "funny :-b " post... until now... it was funny i thought... :-b
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:32 pm

knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
knapplc wrote:It's OK, Omaha. We'll get through this. :-b


The research is there, and it's pretty conclusive. It's widely accepted that there is a genetic predisposition toward addiction. This disposition makes it far more likely for a person who has this genetic makeup to become addicted to a substance, moreso than a person without that makeup. Is it inevitable? No. It is possible for a person without this makeup to become addicted? Yes. Is the entire sum of the science evidence in on this? No.

But the facts are showing, more and more, that addiction is not simply a choice a person makes.


I am not overly familiar with genetic dependencies, but only with the labelling of alcoholism as a disease. Alcoholism is not caused by a virus or germ, but by behavior. One who drinks heavily does not crave alcohol all the time. Like when they wake up or after a large meal.


Let's say you have this gene and I don't. We both drink the same amount in college, but you come out of college an alcoholic and I pretty much stop drinking. Ever wonder why that scenario plays out over and over? It's simply because, the way you are made up, you have a susceptibility to alcoholism that I do not.

That’s what makes a person an alcoholic. Same with drug use, porn addiction – any kind of addiction you can have.

It’s not simply because you develop a behavior that becomes a habit. The propensity for that behavior to become that habit that we classify as addiction is there because of the preexisting genetic makeup of the individual.

This does not absolve a person from their alcoholism or drug addiction. It is merely an explanation for it.


I agree that it is quite a bit more complicated than simply choosing to not drink. It's hard. There's a chemical dependancy that has been developed and established. But just like other addictions, you have to have access to it and ultimately make that decision to abuse it. Do porn addicts access porn at work or in front of their spouses? No. Why not? Because they choose not to. I see the whole alcoholism as a disease viewpoint as more speculation than evidence.
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Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:38 pm

All I can tell you is the research is out there and it's available on the net. It's not ambiguous and it's not esoteric.

I can't change the way people think. I can only go off of what I've read, and personally, it jives with things I've seen in my life. Read up on it if you want. I find this kind of stuff fascinating, personally. Plus, it hits close to home with an alcoholic father and sister.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:55 pm

joelamosobadiah wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
joelamosobadiah wrote:
knapplc wrote:I hope for the sake of you and that little one in your avatar that you can quit, abe.


I thought that was Abe. :-? :*) :-b


He said abe. He wasn't referring to me, though I did smoke at one time. It was the toughest habit to break by far. Staying busy and chewing a lot of gum helped, but it was still very hard.


I was making a joke about the avatar comment.

sorry, I guess not the place for a joke. :*)


Ha, now I get it. :-B

knapplc wrote:All I can tell you is the research is out there and it's available on the net. It's not ambiguous and it's not esoteric.

I can't change the way people think. I can only go off of what I've read, and personally, it jives with things I've seen in my life. Read up on it if you want. I find this kind of stuff fascinating, personally. Plus, it hits close to home with an alcoholic father and sister.


I guess that's where we differ. It doesn't jive with things I've seen in my experiences. I've seen people like my uncle and a few of my friends who drink like fish most of the day, every day. And I know that I used to be like that. I didn't go through intensive rehab, take medication, get hypnotized, or anything like that and I can drink socially. A couple beers on occasion. So that's my experience. My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.
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Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:58 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:55 pm

knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.


But I definitely have an addictive personality. If I had my way I'd drink 20 beers a night. But I know that's destructive behavior so I don't. I choose to stop after 2 or 3.
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:24 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.


But I definitely have an addictive personality. If I had my way I'd drink 20 beers a night. But I know that's destructive behavior so I don't. I choose to stop after 2 or 3.


I never drink if I have to work the next day; I had enough hangover morning classes in college to learn that drinking isn't much fun if you have to wake up early. That said, when I do drink, I tend to drink quite a bit. I find I drink less if I go out though so I try to do that instead of staying at home and polishing off a sixer and a half.
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Postby knapplc » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:42 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.


But I definitely have an addictive personality. If I had my way I'd drink 20 beers a night. But I know that's destructive behavior so I don't. I choose to stop after 2 or 3.


So what are you saying? That genetics do not play a role in addiction?
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:46 pm

knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.


But I definitely have an addictive personality. If I had my way I'd drink 20 beers a night. But I know that's destructive behavior so I don't. I choose to stop after 2 or 3.


So what are you saying? That genetics do not play a role in addiction?


I say that genetics do play a role in addiction; like anything else, there is a nature vs. nurture argument and there is no steadfast way of knowing if someone will be an alcoholic. Are kids with alcoholic parents more likely to abuse alcohol themselves because of their environment growing up, or genes? I think it's an interesting, and difficult discussion.

I will say that I do not believe addiction is a "disease." I'm not sure if people understand the meaning of disease. If you don't, talk to a terminal cancer patient. They'll tell you that you can stop drinking at anytime; no matter how difficult it may be, you have the physical ability to not drink. You can't tell a person with cancer to stop having cancer. You can't send them to a 12 step program. You can't tell them to give up their "disease" to a higher power that will make them better. That is a disease.
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Postby stomperrob » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:36 pm

Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote: My bio-dad was a drug addict and alcoholic. I should be screwed.


It depends on the genes you got from him. My bio-dad was too, and my sister is, but I'm not. It's not a 1:1 ratio that if you have an addicted parent you'll be addicted. It's like the lottery. You and I won. My sister did not. I can drink a few beers and then not touch the stuff for ages. She drinks two beers and she's hooked again.


But I definitely have an addictive personality. If I had my way I'd drink 20 beers a night. But I know that's destructive behavior so I don't. I choose to stop after 2 or 3.


So what are you saying? That genetics do not play a role in addiction?


I say that genetics do play a role in addiction; like anything else, there is a nature vs. nurture argument and there is no steadfast way of knowing if someone will be an alcoholic. Are kids with alcoholic parents more likely to abuse alcohol themselves because of their environment growing up, or genes? I think it's an interesting, and difficult discussion.

I will say that I do not believe addiction is a "disease." I'm not sure if people understand the meaning of disease. If you don't, talk to a terminal cancer patient. They'll tell you that you can stop drinking at anytime; no matter how difficult it may be, you have the physical ability to not drink. You can't tell a person with cancer to stop having cancer. You can't send them to a 12 step program. You can't tell them to give up their "disease" to a higher power that will make them better. That is a disease.


Or perchance it's you who is making the definition of disease too narrow. Interesting article out of the University of San Fransisco:

Alcoholism: Vice or Disease? A Conversation with Howard FieldsPart 1 of 3



By Jeff Miller

What if we put cancer patients in jail? It's a ridiculous thought, of course. No one chooses to get cancer. It's a disease whose emergence is dictated by a complex interplay among environment, lifestyle and genetics.


Using the same logic, neuroscientist Howard Fields, MD, PhD — a senior researcher at the UCSF-affiliated Ernest Gallo Clinic and Research Center and director of UCSF's Wheeler Center for the Neurobiology of Addiction — wonders, then, why we punish addicts.

"If you listen to addicts, they say, 'I'm out of control. I can't help it. I can't stop myself. I know I need help.' That's what everyone needs to understand. Most alcoholics would like to cut back on their drinking. But some unconscious force makes them take that fifth or sixth drink even when they know they shouldn't. This is a disease, not a crime."

Finding that unconscious force inside the human brain is the holy grail of Fields' research. It's a quest that has little use for the magic wand called willpower that society waves over the addiction problem as both an explanation and a solution. "Blaming a person's lack of willpower is another way of saying it's your fault, that you had a choice," says Fields. "But who chooses to be an addict? And what is willpower but just another manifestation of nerve cell activity?"

If not a failure of willpower, then, what is alcohol addiction? Fields is quick with an answer. "To me, the simplest way of thinking about it is impulsivity. In other words, if there is something immediately available, you ignore the long-term consequences. In fact, the longer term the consequences are, the less influence they will have over your current behavior. This is what we as scientists have to understand: How does your motivation for immediate reward outweigh your ability to wait for a larger pleasure?"


It's a fascinating neurobiological conundrum that all of us either witness or participate in daily. Think about it for a moment. At some point in our lives, almost everyone is exposed to alcohol. Yet most people do not become alcoholics, even those who drink small or moderate amounts daily.

For perhaps 5 percent to 10 percent of us, though, and for reasons as yet unexplained, drinking alcohol becomes an addiction with often disastrous consequences on our health, our freedom and the lives of others. The statistics are grim. In addition to the 17,000 traffic-related fatalities, alcohol abuse in the United States annually causes:
• 1,400 deaths
• 500,000 injuries
• 600,000 assaults
• 70,000 sexual assaults

What is going on inside the heads of these people? society asks with both contempt and rage. Fields has an answer of sorts. "When you compare alcoholics and controls as they decide between an immediate reward and a delayed one, you see that chronic alcoholics are much more impulsive."

Which came first, the drinking or the impulsivity? It's not an idle question, and it's one that Fields cannot yet answer. "We don't know if drinking causes impulsiveness or if innate impulsiveness makes alcoholics drink more."


Still, some of the scientific murkiness is beginning to clear. For example, Fields and his colleagues have found that for those who prefer the delayed reward, there is activity in different regions of the brain than if you prefer the immediate reward. "You can think of it as the neural correlates of the ego (immediate gratification) and superego (long-term benefit)," Fields remarks. The key point is that if there are different paths for processing immediate and delayed gratification, then the underlying neural mechanism and biochemistry must be different as well.

And if you understand these differences, you are closer to understanding what makes alcoholics different. The main point is that their brains are different, and that is why they cannot stop drinking once they start.



(parts 2 &3 not available yet)
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